Printing paper (for a laser printer) question

Pete_M · Post by **Pete_M** » 14 Jun 2007, 13:27

I would like to create a printed manual of articles from the net. I would also
like it to last for a long time. Does anyone no if special paper and/or laser
inks are available for long term printing? What is the expected printed
page life from a laser?

Thanks for any info.

Pete M

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 14 Jun 2007, 13:38

When you say 'a long time', do you mean decades, or are you looking for archival quality to last centuries?

Post by **mikepepler** » 14 Jun 2007, 14:09

These lasted quite a long time:

(image from here: http://www.livius.org/as-at/assyria/assyria.html)
Turns out Nineveh was famous for its library, as well as being visited by Jonah!
http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/resea ... ase_1.aspx

I guess it may take a while for you to get the important information down on clay tablets and bake them though...

Vortex · Post by **Vortex** » 14 Jun 2007, 14:27

Acid free "archival paper" can last 100 years.

I bet it could be longer than that if laminated with UV protective films.

You can get liquid archival ink for ink jets ... but powdered toners do NOT seem to be of archival quality ... you have around 15 years or so, with fading being evident after about 5.

The reds of coloured powder images seem to fade rapidly.

Black and white is the safest way to go.

Liquid toners are recommended for archival use.

http://www.vam.ac.uk/res_cons/conservat ... index.html
http://www.sec.state.ma.us/arc/arcrmu/r ... l92004.htm
http://www.coastalbusiness.com/index.as ... odID=35078
http://www.inkprices.com/item--Epson-C1 ... 41342.html
http://www.silverprint.co.uk/chem23.html
http://photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=003nNV

Post by **mikepepler** » 14 Jun 2007, 15:27

Vortex wrote: You can get liquid archival ink for ink jets ... but powdered toners do NOT seem to be of archival quality ... you have around 15 years or so, with fading being evident after about 5.

I was clearing out some old paperwork a few weeks ago, and came across stuff I'd laser printed in 1992/93. It was still perfectly readable, only faint signs of fading. However, I'd not looked at it in the intervening 15 years! I suspect if it had been a regularly used manual, it wouldn't have fared so well.

Perhaps the problem is not fading, but durability, if it's going to be in regular use?

Vortex · Post by **Vortex** » 14 Jun 2007, 15:56

Perhaps the problem is not fading, but durability, if it's going to be in regular use?
Apparently toner isn't well bound to the paper, and so can flake away especially when old.

Pete_M · Post by **Pete_M** » 14 Jun 2007, 17:11

Hi all,
thanks for the tips. I really wanted to capture some information for say a 20 year period. For example the drawings for my solar power supply,
and notes on fixing it etc, experinces with compost!! etc. Ill probably put the sheets in plastic envelopes to help preserve them. Your comments on laser toner are noted - thanks.

Pete M

Post by **mikepepler** » 14 Jun 2007, 17:18

Of course, this is what the tradition of telling well-known stories was for, thousands of years ago. Because everyone pretty much knew the stories, they would correct the teller if they made a mistake, so keep a kind of error-correction in there.

Mind you, the volume of information we have these days might be too great for this method...

Andy Hunt · Post by **Andy Hunt** » 14 Jun 2007, 17:22

Acoustic guitars could make a big come-back.

A lot of folk music communicates social wisdom through the medium of tunes and lyrics. Beards and Arran sweaters could once again be symbols of knowldge and status!

skeptik · Post by **skeptik** » 14 Jun 2007, 18:58

Pete_M wrote:Hi all,
thanks for the tips. I really wanted to capture some information for say a 20 year period. For example the drawings for my solar power supply,
and notes on fixing it etc, experinces with compost!! etc. Ill probably put the sheets in plastic envelopes to help preserve them. Your comments on laser toner are noted - thanks.

Pete M

I'd also try to store any archived material somewhere cool and dry where the temperature does not vary. - if possible.

As a very rough rule of thumb, in the normal ambient temperature range chemical reactions double in speed with every 10C rise in temperature.

This obviously also applies to the reactions in the paper and ink which lead to deterioration.Storage a few degrees above freezing would be ideal , but storage in a well sealed container in your cellar, if you have one, would be far preferable to the loft.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 14 Jun 2007, 19:49

20 years is nothing. Victorian books were often printed on not very special paper but are still perfectly usable after a century and more. Acid free archival paper will last a millenium if kept dry, so it's a matter of getting the right ink.

I would be wary of putting things in plastic. If paper does accidently get damp, no great harm may ensue if it can dry out again, but if it is touching plastic it will soon rot.

MacG · Post by **MacG** » 14 Jun 2007, 22:33

biffvernon wrote:20 years is nothing. Victorian books were often printed on not very special paper but are still perfectly usable after a century and more. Acid free archival paper will last a millenium if kept dry, so it's a matter of getting the right ink.

I would be wary of putting things in plastic. If paper does accidently get damp, no great harm may ensue if it can dry out again, but if it is touching plastic it will soon rot.

I'm chasing links for this, but until the 1920's, most paper seem do have been made from hemp fibers. Contain no acids and is extremely durable. Still chasing links, but the demonization of hemp was apparently not only driven by Nylon, but also by the then newly patented sulfate process for making paper from wood. Paper from wood require significantly bigger investments than paper from hemp and push out all small-scale operators if it's the only choice. The only way to get hemp off the market was to ban it using government power.

Personally I've laser printed the works of Dmitry Orlov on archive grade (wood pulp because that was what I had) paper and laminated them. Three copies. One copy to him and two for my stash. When the papers come out of the laser printer they are very dry for an hour or so, and I laminated them quickly. Stored dry and dark they should last a couple of thousand years. About 0.01% chance those copies will actually survive, but it would be a blast for an anthropologist from a new civilization to find them AD 4000 or so.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 15 Jun 2007, 08:43

Yes and not just hemp. A lot of paper was made of rags, cotton and linen. I think woodpulp was substitued for rag on a large scale around the middle of the 19th century.

Silas · Post by **Silas** » 18 Jun 2007, 11:28

Also Baggas a by product from sugar production is used for paper.

Pete_M · Post by **Pete_M** » 21 Jun 2007, 23:57

Sorry for not commenting; ive been away. Having mentioned old books we do have a couple of antique books going back to 18 and 1700 s. The print is still perfectly clear. The bindings are failing though.

Ive thought a bit more about my aims for the documents; I think the information I wanted to record needs to last a bit longer than thing being documented so in the case of the PV system 30 years would be OK. Ill look into the archive grade paper.

Andy, RE guitars - have you thought about preserving the sheet music? We have sheet music at home (piano - wife, guitar - son, drums - daughter, sax - me) It would be nice if it would last a few generations (that might be long enough for me to become a resonable player

).

Thanks for the info.

Pete M