Permaculture & Getting Going in the Garden.

Norm · Post by **Norm** » 16 May 2007, 10:20

Is there something more suitable for that wall - its hot and sheltered.

A fig tree. Fruit for the rest of your life!

Post by **clv101** » 16 May 2007, 11:28

Pippa wrote:
biffvernon wrote:
Pippa wrote:Anyone got any good ideas about what I could grow on the left hand side wall?
Hydroponics could be the way to go in a restricted space with walls. Ask clv101 about his GCSE Technology project

Now about that table and patio heater....
Are you suggesting I make a large pond?

Hydroponics or hydroculture is crop production with mineral nutrient solutions instead of soil containing silt and clay. Terrestrial plants may be grown with their roots in the mineral nutrient solution only or in an inert medium, such as perlite, gravel or rockwool.
Wikipedia

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 16 May 2007, 11:37

Nice picture - but that's A level rather than GCSE.

It really is a way of producing a surprising amount of food in a small urban space.

alternative-energy · Post by **alternative-energy** » 16 May 2007, 12:41

I think that hydroponics are unlikely to be organic or fitting in with permaculture principles. However they are excellent at regulating the nutrient content and temperature of the circulating solution.
They are energy hungry compared with soil, compost and watering can!From experience (growing tomatoes on a commercial scale quite a few years ago) the solution has to be monitored fairly regularly to ensure correct nutrient levels. Its quite easy to build up nutrient toxicity and deficiencies especially of trace elements after a time.

However hydroponic methods have moved on since then. Personally i would prefer traditional methods and selection of plants to suit aspect and soil type and growing in large containers when acid loving plants are needed. ( blue berries)

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 16 May 2007, 13:24

The Hydroponicum at Achiltibuie, NW Scotland, is the place to start looking at how to grow food in urban areas. (Though areas don't come much less urban than Achiltibuie.)

Pippa · Post by **Pippa** » 16 May 2007, 14:12

I love figs and they grow well round here. I think that a fig tree wouldn't like the confines of the corner though. Maybe I should grow grapes (not keen on them personally except well fermented).

Maybe I could plant a fig tree outside our property (in the churchyard).

Will go and get an apple and cherry tree and think again when they are planted.

Biff

I like the idea on growing stuff on platforms. Last year when I grew the tomatos in the flowerbed I gave them far too much compost. They grew like triffids and had far too much green when the fruits came. I was told by someone who used to grow tomatoes commercially that I would have been better off planting them in sand and only giving food once the flowers had set. I think that's the general idea of hydroponics - thanks for the suggestion.

I will try growing half my toms where I was going to next to the house, the others "on"| the wall.

Keela · Post by **Keela** » 16 May 2007, 14:13

I do think the old soil & home made compost methods are the ones most likely to remain sustainable in times of high energy prices....

My whole reason for growing stuff would be linked to reducing my dependance on others.... hydroponic growing might only increase my dependance on suppliers of the nutrients etc.

Build up soil fertility etc. (Catch some of what the horse leaves behind Pippa!) and I think that would be a much better investment for the future.

Now a fig tree.... I've been thinking about that for a while! Just OH doesn't like figs!

Post by **clv101** » 16 May 2007, 14:49

I?d tend to put hydroponics more in the ?techno fantasy? camp rather than the ?powerdown? camp.

Pippa · Post by **Pippa** » 16 May 2007, 14:56

I was thinking that I could use some of our horse poo and put it in a watering can to give the toms the necessary nutrients. Not exactly hydroponics but a watered down version.

Don't know about you Sally but I have got alot of poo; I collect it off the fields all year round and in the winter (it is an incredible wormery) collect the straw, wee and poo from the stable in the winter. Last year my manure heap got really hot!!!!

Pictures to follow

Norm · Post by **Norm** » 16 May 2007, 16:22

I think that a fig tree wouldn't like the confines of the corner though.

In the UK, I would have thought it was a very suitable position.

I am already eating this years tomato crop. I use a home made liquid fertilizer. I have a 25 litre paint tin which I fill with goat dung and water, boil on the brazier for 20 minutes, cool, strain through a garden seive into another bucket. The leavings go on the compost heap and the liquid is my Tom food.

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 16 May 2007, 16:28

Why boil it, Dinor? Surely you'll destroy some of the nutrients and all of the beneficial bugs. Nettle and comfrey tea for plants is made by just soaking the stuff in a barrel and watering on. Couldn't you do the same with the goat muck? It would save a load of energy as well.

Norm · Post by **Norm** » 16 May 2007, 18:29

You may be right Kenneal! I made it this way because I was initially sterilizing the manure for a mushroom substrate and the liquid was a by product. The substrate was a failure, hence thrown on the compost( I think it was too acidic.) The liquid manure though has been a great success. My toms are now 6 foot high with several trusses and ripening toms of which we have just picked the first few. I will boil up some more when this batch is gone.

I only use dry brush wood or scrap wood for brazier fuel so nothing is wasted fuel wise.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 16 May 2007, 19:12

I don't think hydroponics has to be techno-fantasy with bought in chemicals. I think some of the principles can be adapted into a much more organic, permaculture direction with home made recycled compost juice. It's a matter of using three dimensions to cram in a lot of plants so that as little sunlight as possible is wasted on the bare ground and nutrients are delivered to where they're needed.

If the economy does go pear-shaped one day and the real price of food goes much higher, it will be good if urban populations can supplement their food in ingenious ways.

Pete_M · Post by **Pete_M** » 16 May 2007, 21:06

I am already eating this years tomato crop.

Dinor - are these under glass? I was feeling pleased because mine are flowering (in the greenhouse). We dont feed ours anything though.

My crops last year were grown in rasied paper mulched beds and they were like triffids. I have been told by several people that the growths between the main stems need pinching out to increase yield (like we didnt have enough). Im doing that this year

Pete M

Norm · Post by **Norm** » 16 May 2007, 22:48

Pete_M,
No they are in a leanto which is covered with a plastic roof and a polythene drape which is only put down to protect from cold in the winter. A greenhouse would be far to hot here (Spain). I started my Toms last November in pots indoors and have planted most in grow bags (Just potting compost bags really) and one in a large pot. I also have Tom Thumb growing outside with cherry size fruit already but still green. In my leanto I am growing them with string support which will allow me to layer them so that when they reach the top of the leanto, I lay a section of each plant down on the floor so that they keep growing and producing all season. I have grown them commercially this way in the past.
Most toms need to be grown as cordons as you say with the growths pinched out of the leaf axils but novices need to beware not to confuse these growths for the flowering trusses. There are some varieties though that can be grown as bushes without the need for pinching out.
You do need to feed them twice weekly once the the first truss has set if you want to get the best out of them. Under glass in hot weather spray the plants and the area around daily to bring up the humidity.