Ukraine Watch...

[UndercoverElephant]

Ed Davey and Kemi Badenoch have now both condemned Trump for calling Zelensky a dictator. What does Starmer do now? So far he's stood for nothing -- he has appeared to have no real principles, but at least was a safe pair of hands. He "does the right thing", in a conventional sense -- or at least that is what he tries to do. What is the right thing now? Starmer always tries to take the middle way. This time there is no middle way.

And what does Farage do? It looks to me like there are Reform supporters going in both directions -- some of them are condemning it and want Farage to do so also, and some are basically saying that we can't afford to support Ukraine without the US so we might as well just go along with the bullshit. In other words "Not our problem."

I think this is the beginning of a hugely significant geopolitical re-arrangement. The US is effectively leaving the West, and heading towards some sort of techno-fascist feudalism, crossed with idiocracy.

[clv101]

Starmer has, predictably, come out for Zelensky.

"UK Prime Minister Sir Keir Starmer has spoken to Zelensky this evening, to express his support as "Ukraine's democratically elected leader", according to Downing Street.

Starmer told Zelensky it is "perfectly reasonable to suspend elections during war time as the UK did" during World War Two, the statement adds."

[BritDownUnder]

To me it looks like Trump has been compromised but you never know, he might pull a rabbit out the hat. He has called people worse.

I prefer more war slowly nibbling away at Russian manpower. The UK recently modified some Russian VIMPEL air-launched missiles that Ukraine had in stock to allow them to be launched from containers - violation of the Geneva convention to launch missiles from something civilian. Shot down a helicopter over the Black Sea. We need more of that technical innovation that the UK used to be famous for.

[UndercoverElephant]

There is no way back from this situation. Trump is now very clearly singing from Putin's hymn sheet -- he's parroting absurd Russian propaganda. Whether he's compromised or just completely mad, either way he is now a direct threat to European security. NATO is dead in the water. If Russia attacked a European NATO country, can we even be sure that the US would respond in its defence? Until tonight that was a reasonable assumption. Now it is doubtful.

But there really isn't any way back. Trump cannot now do a u-turn and start supporting Zelensky again, and Zelensky can't hold elections even if he wanted to because it would be against the Ukrainian constitution. The US has strategically changed sides.

The implications of this are truly mind-boggling, and right now I'm not seeing that reflected in the mainstream UK media but it cannot be avoided for long. Everybody who matters is going to have to choose a side, there is no fence to sit on, and it looks like very few people are going to side with the Americans. America itself is going to be split down the middle by it.

The only sane way out of this now is for the US secret service to remove Trump from the equation.

[adam2]

There is no way back from this situation. Trump is now very clearly singing from Putin's hymn sheet -- he's parroting absurd Russian propaganda. Whether he's compromised or just completely mad, either way he is now a direct threat to European security. NATO is dead in the water. If Russia attacked a European NATO country, can we even be sure that the US would respond in its defence? Until tonight that was a reasonable assumption. Now it is doubtful.

But there really isn't any way back. Trump cannot now do a u-turn and start supporting Zelensky again, and Zelensky can't hold elections even if he wanted to because it would be against the Ukrainian constitution. The US has strategically changed sides.

The implications of this are truly mind-boggling, and right now I'm not seeing that reflected in the mainstream UK media but it cannot be avoided for long. Everybody who matters is going to have to choose a side, there is no fence to sit on, and it looks like very few people are going to side with the Americans. America itself is going to be split down the middle by it.

The only sane way out of this now is for the US secret service to remove Trump from the equation.

I agree.

[Mark]

The US has strategically changed sides.

Trump has strategically changed sides.
How much of the US he's taking with him has yet to be seen....

[invalid]

Trump is acting perfectly rational. Just because he isn't blindly supporting Ukraine or aligning with the Rest of NATO doesn't make him stupid. And in fact Trump is doing exactly what's good for his own country. . Funnily enough every time I mentioned on this thread how NATO had been weakened, I was told quite the opposite.

Zelensky could hold elections. He just needs to make a ceasefire and lift martial law. He has clearly never bee interested in peace.

[Mark]

Zelensky could hold elections. He just needs to make a ceasefire and lift martial law. He has clearly never bee interested in peace.

Ukraine is busy fighting a hostile neighbour that's invaded its land - you might have noticed ?
Not exactly a conducive environment for holding elections...
Or perhaps they should follow the shining example of democratic elections in places like Russia or Belarus ?

I really don't know why you bother posting on here.
Just consider, if you were posting pro western views on a Russian Forum, you'd be dragged off to a Siberian gulag....

[BritDownUnder]

The US has strategically changed sides.

Trump has strategically changed sides.
How much of the US he's taking with him has yet to be seen....

Two Republican Senators interviewed on ABC (US not Aus) News. One called Putin a gangster and the other sort of supported Trump. Another Republican Senator said he agreed with Ukraine but did mention the debt and US military expenditure in Europe.

Europe (minus the UK) really needs to get the wallet out and start spending or sending men there - funny how 1 million Poles can come to the UK, totally wreck the British lower paid population and then they don't have any people to help Ukraine. Then they brag they will have a higher GDP than the UK in 2030. They really do have the cash somewhere.

Maybe Zelensky should suggest talks with China over rare earths extraction?

....
Just consider, if you were posting pro western views on a Russian Forum, you'd be dragged off to a Siberian gulag....

As someone who has visited the Gulag museum in Moscow there is/was a surprising number of Russian/Soviet Gulags that were not in Siberia but other parts of Russia. There was even a special Gulag system just for employees of the Gulag system.

People need to be careful what they wish for.

[mr brightside]

There is no way back from this situation. Trump is now very clearly singing from Putin's hymn sheet -- he's parroting absurd Russian propaganda. Whether he's compromised or just completely mad, either way he is now a direct threat to European security. NATO is dead in the water. If Russia attacked a European NATO country, can we even be sure that the US would respond in its defence? Until tonight that was a reasonable assumption. Now it is doubtful.

But there really isn't any way back. Trump cannot now do a u-turn and start supporting Zelensky again, and Zelensky can't hold elections even if he wanted to because it would be against the Ukrainian constitution. The US has strategically changed sides.

The implications of this are truly mind-boggling, and right now I'm not seeing that reflected in the mainstream UK media but it cannot be avoided for long. Everybody who matters is going to have to choose a side, there is no fence to sit on, and it looks like very few people are going to side with the Americans. America itself is going to be split down the middle by it.

The only sane way out of this now is for the US secret service to remove Trump from the equation.

I don't think it's war he's after, i think he wants Russia back in global business, back in the SWIFT system for example. I think the pathway to this outcome just looks like a pathway to war. Like someone else recently said on the Trumpwatch thread, 'in Trumpworld everything is a deal to be done'.

[Ralphw2]

The UK's problem with splitting politically from the US is that we are 100% integrated into the US spy and intelligence networks, and 99% dependent on US support for any military operations. The US also has a physical veto over our nuclear weapons use.

Political leaders could not even discuss this over a picnic in green park without a transcript being on Trump's desk in an hour.

[UndercoverElephant]

The UK's problem with splitting politically from the US is that we are 100% integrated into the US spy and intelligence networks, and 99% dependent on US support for any military operations. The US also has a physical veto over our nuclear weapons use.

Are you certain about that last claim, because I am seeing major disagreements about it elsewhere? Some people agree with you, some believe the US is only required for maintenance and upgrades.

Political leaders could not even discuss this over a picnic in green park without a transcript being on Trump's desk in an hour.

I don't agree, and the above remark suggests to me that you are uncharacteristically refusing to accept reality. If Europe wants to split politically it can be done, including being able to have conversations that the US does not automatically hear. They are NOT our big brother, and I believe we now have to accept that.

Europe cannot trust the Americans. They are now the biggest threat. I have never been more worried about the state of the world than I am right now. I thought Trump 2.0 might be very bad, but I had no idea it would be this bad.

Look at todays' headlines: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz9nw8dl7g9o

Mail: "Trump appals world"
Express: "Shameful Trump attack stuns world"
Guardian: "Trump deepens rift with Ukraine by labelling Zelensky a dictator"
Star: "Putin's Poodle"
etc...

The West is being shattered. We cannot go along with this -- not just because it is morally depraved but because we cannot trust the Americans not to attack Europe.

We must push back. Starmer cannot just go along with this. Where does it end? Do we also go along with the US invading Greenland, or "taking over" Gaza and rebuilding it as a holiday resort? This leads to the total destruction of Western civilisation by destroying its values. Trump is trying to reverse the English Civil War and re-instate himself as a divinely ordained ruler. He thinks he's a new king. He has to be stopped, one way or another. And I think the only way is a bullet to the head.

[Mark]

Just consider, if you were posting pro western views on a Russian Forum, you'd be dragged off to a Siberian gulag....

As someone who has visited the Gulag museum in Moscow there is/was a surprising number of Russian/Soviet Gulags that were not in Siberia but other parts of Russia. There was even a special Gulag system just for employees of the Gulag system.

People need to be careful what they wish for.

Our little invalid needs to keep posting on here.....
So that he doesn't end up becoming a little invalid for real.....

[Ralphw2]

I am not sure about the nuclear veto, and the US spying on political leaders referred primarily to the UK. All countries spy on each other, but the level of electronic snooping is scary. There is a lot of talk about Chinese backdoors in electronic devices in western infrastructure, but I cannot believe they have not been in US controlled devices for at least a decade, probably two. Edward Snowden blew that story open, but my direct knowledge supports everything he said.

The level of data sharing is so high and routine that any attempt to disengage would be a major red flag to the US in seconds. A large number of US spooks have high level access to UK institutions.

[Mark]

We must push back. Starmer cannot just go along with this. Where does it end? Do we also go along with the US invading Greenland, or "taking over" Gaza and rebuilding it as a holiday resort? This leads to the total destruction of Western civilisation by destroying its values. Trump is trying to reverse the English Civil War and re-instate himself as a divinely ordained ruler. He thinks he's a new king. He has to be stopped, one way or another. And I think the only way is a bullet to the head.

Well, he has a record of trying to do what he says....

I think it's perfectly possible he could send troops to Greenland
Nothing Denmark could do to resist....., is Greenland considered part of NATO (?)
Either way, it would defo finish NATO....

It's likely Israel sees this as a green light to clear Gaza of Palestinians.
They're already 50% there - they're just waiting for any excuse to go back in....
USAID won't be arriving to feed anybody, so they'll soon be starved out...
Israel would never be able to mention the word genocide again.
Israel and the US then can then build what they want.
It won't bring peace though.

Trump has no civilisation or values - we can all see that....
I'm sure the US Spooks are considering a bullet - as well as many of their highly armed citizens...
Only problem is that would likely lead to a 2nd US Civil War...