UK degrowth website asking for feedback for political manifesto

[mr brightside]

I'm reading a guide to enlightenment at the moment, it has a bit to say about the direction of humankind. The move away from spiritual ideas toward religious ideas (right/wrong, punishment for alleged bad deeds etc) has a lot to do with it. Micael Ledwith reckons everyone is religious in this way, dispite most of us never having set foot in a church. The ego mind loves righteous quests.

[RevdTess]

The ego mind loves righteous quests.

Doesn't it just!

[Potemkin Villager]

I am sad that I can't see any sustainable way towards sustainable ecocivilisation except to offer solutions that assume and make use of self-interest, rather than come out of generosity and kind-heartedness.

That is an excellent summary of how humans work. We are, en masse, selfish, unable to make helpful sensible long term decisions. Individual acts of kindness/generosity exist, but en masse? We are not grown ups, we are very badly flawed. Our undoing will be our own doing. No Gods to blame here. We dun it.

Considering the lamentable takeaways from issues currently getting a good airing, such as the infected blood and post office debacles, it seems this is deeply and systemically baked into all institutions. This is reflected in the "only following orders", sadistic and obstructive mentality of those attracted to work in institutions which could effect needed changes but will not. No they just want to play let's pretend there is no problem.

Degrowth isn't going to happen voluntarily, though it will happen involuntarily and Burton et al are only going to be hugely disappointed. Only well after involuntarily degrowth has set in with a vengeance will a commission of enquiry be eventually set up to try and figure out what went wrong!

[UndercoverElephant]

I'm very much onboard with your perspective on this UE. Maybe it's just a feature of getting older, but I keep seeing the eco-movement in general getting lost in idealisms and ideology that they still expect everyone to fall in line with because 'it's so obviously correct'. Not so many years ago, leftist (especially anarchist) movements were in the vanguard against globalisation. Now it's the right-wing groups who are anti-globalist, and leftists who are somehow expecting the world to come together to do the right thing. Like you I think human selfishness has to be taken as a complete given and if a proposed way forward to ecocivilisation doesn't work in that context then it's not going to work at all.

Given that my day-job is as a representative of a religion that seeks to guide people towards a more compassionate and less selfish life, I am sad that I can't see any sustainable way towards sustainable ecocivilisation except to offer solutions that assume and make use of self-interest, rather than come out of generosity and kind-heartedness.

It's instructive how little the 'even-greater-than-feared' rise in global temperatures has triggered changes in behaviour in wealthy nations. All the catastrophising has simply led to most people shrugging and then going back to whatever they were doing. The frog is never going to jump out of the slowly heating pot until it's too late. I hate to look for technology rather than social transformation for solutions but tidal power, geothermal and fusion seem the only way to cut off carbon burning, if they ever work at scale. The more a society struggles, the more authoritarian, rigid, and selfish it seems to become. It appears that it's only in times of plenty that social justice and generosity flourish.

One of the innovations in recent years that I've found helpful both from a selfish and an eco perspective is the ability of companies like Octopus to show us through smart meters how much energy we're using every half hour, and even charge different amounts each half-hour, so you can shift usage to not only avoid high-carbon periods but also save a ton of money. Joining up selfish financial gain with the art of paying attention to the availability of low-carbon energy seems to me to be a win-win.

Yes to all that, and we are in the process of joining Octopus right now. Had to wait for a smart meter to be installed, which required extending the network coverage, or we'd already be signed up.

[mr brightside]

I'm very much onboard with your perspective on this UE. Maybe it's just a feature of getting older, but I keep seeing the eco-movement in general getting lost in idealisms and ideology that they still expect everyone to fall in line with because 'it's so obviously correct'. Not so many years ago, leftist (especially anarchist) movements were in the vanguard against globalisation. Now it's the right-wing groups who are anti-globalist, and leftists who are somehow expecting the world to come together to do the right thing. Like you I think human selfishness has to be taken as a complete given and if a proposed way forward to ecocivilisation doesn't work in that context then it's not going to work at all.

Given that my day-job is as a representative of a religion that seeks to guide people towards a more compassionate and less selfish life, I am sad that I can't see any sustainable way towards sustainable ecocivilisation except to offer solutions that assume and make use of self-interest, rather than come out of generosity and kind-heartedness.

It's instructive how little the 'even-greater-than-feared' rise in global temperatures has triggered changes in behaviour in wealthy nations. All the catastrophising has simply led to most people shrugging and then going back to whatever they were doing. The frog is never going to jump out of the slowly heating pot until it's too late. I hate to look for technology rather than social transformation for solutions but tidal power, geothermal and fusion seem the only way to cut off carbon burning, if they ever work at scale. The more a society struggles, the more authoritarian, rigid, and selfish it seems to become. It appears that it's only in times of plenty that social justice and generosity flourish.

One of the innovations in recent years that I've found helpful both from a selfish and an eco perspective is the ability of companies like Octopus to show us through smart meters how much energy we're using every half hour, and even charge different amounts each half-hour, so you can shift usage to not only avoid high-carbon periods but also save a ton of money. Joining up selfish financial gain with the art of paying attention to the availability of low-carbon energy seems to me to be a win-win.

Yes to all that, and we are in the process of joining Octopus right now. Had to wait for a smart meter to be installed, which required extending the network coverage, or we'd already be signed up.

Octopus are knobs, they alter your DD without telling you.

[Ralphw2]

You can alter your own DD through the Octopus app. I halved mine and octopus hasn't complained. I still expect it to be an overestimate of my actual bills. Getting a refund of my four figure credit may take a bit longer...