Ukraine Watch...

[BritDownUnder]

Some history for you:

https://consciousnessofsheep.co.uk/2024 ... ful-idiot/

A history blog I guess.

I reckon you are up to learning about Ukrainian and Russian politics and history from TikTok if this is the best you can do.

[invalid]

Needless to say, that, of course, appeal to popularity is a fallacy.

[UndercoverElephant]

Some history for you:

https://consciousnessofsheep.co.uk/2024 ... ful-idiot/

A history blog I guess.

I reckon you are up to learning about Ukrainian and Russian politics and history from TikTok if this is the best you can do.

This standard of debate on this board is being dragged down to the level of TikTok by certain individuals.

[Default0ptions]

UE replied to my most recent post: “you … continue to think it is appropriate to continually personalise discussions in order to attempt to piss people off so much they leave the debate.”

Isn’t this post of yours UE, along with many other posts of yours, doing exactly that to me?

You are either a russian troll, or a complete f***ing idiot. If I was running this board, you would be banned…

UE: “And yes my best guess at a particular time about a particular thing was wrong.”

It was, wasn’t it? But my ‘best guess’ at that particular time was right. Wasn’t it.

[Default0ptions]

Some history for you:

https://consciousnessofsheep.co.uk/2024 ... ful-idiot/

A history blog I guess.

I reckon you are up to learning about Ukrainian and Russian politics and history from TikTok if this is the best you can do.

I believe UE has quoted Tim Watkins at the consciousnessofsheep in support of his position before now BDU - it’s certainly not TikTok.

https://consciousnessofsheep.co.uk/2021 ... oing-down/

Perhaps you should read more carefully, BDU, before knee jerk attempts at personal put downs?

[BritDownUnder]

I don't really mind who quotes this blog actually but don't make the mistake of thinking that someone's opinion of events is the same as a record of the same events. One blog post seems to quote published gas prices and LNG delivery data presumably based on verified data and the other blog post seemed to be a series of random quotes and opinions about whether Winston Churchill was mad or not and whether he could in 1940 have predicted the consequences of the Wannsee conference held in 1942 (I like the movie Conspiracy about this BTW). And whether Churchill was a bloodthirsty warmonger or not. Treating Clive Ponting as an expert is going a bit too far IMHO. Did he lose his gold plated civil service pension for his actions and have to take up writing perhaps?

Not really apples with apples but carry on.

Britain was in a bad position in 1939 as the appeasement had gone too far and the Eastern European dominos had fallen one by one and two genocidal regimes had conspired in secret to partition Poland (something that had happened before in history) and then eventually proceeded to fight each other. I think that Russia and China are also quite chummy at the moment - let's see how that lasts. I am of the opinion that too much help was given to the USSR by the UK and USA in WW2. Should have let them suffer a bit more, especially after December 1941 when it was evident that Germans were running into trouble. I went to the WW2 museum in Moscow by the way - they don't have names of their dead chiselled on walls as there are not enough walls (maybe the Berlin wall is big enough but that's another matter, they have them in books the size and font of phone books in glass boxes. President Putin is hoping that he could reabsorb Eastern European countries in a similar manner. At the moment he is having a hard time and our job is make sure that UK supplied and manufactured armaments contribute in continuing giving him (or rather his people) a hard time. When they rise up and overthrow him we know we will have been successful.

[Default0ptions]

BDU - why on earth would Russia want to ‘reabsorb’ bankrupt countries in Europe and lumber itself with their debts rather than simply let both parties profit from the cheap energy and commodities they have to trade?

Just like America was prepared to go to the brink over the soviet threat to put nukes in Cuba - NATO in Ukraine is not something Russia can allow on its borders.

You’re going into the mutually exclusive arena in which you claim both that Russia is being thrashed in the Ukraine - but is just inches away from overrunning the whole EU.

It’s one or the other BDU.

[Ralphw2]

You argue as if Russia,by which you mean Putin and his immediate cabal, would honour anything remotely like debts owed by countries that he denies the existence of as sovereign states. He is only interested in their resources, mineral and human,, the political and military leverage his control of those territories would grant him in the global great game. Putin invaded Ukraine assuming it would be a walkover, and now he is expending 100s of thousands of lives to save just one, his own. Failure now would be lethal to Putin after the hundreds of opposition figures he has terminated over the recent years.

Like the Roman empire, Russia now can only survive in its current form by continuing to steal the resources of the lands it conquests. That is why letting Russia win in Ukraine will only lead to another war when their military industrial complex has had time to recover.

Has the US indulged in comparable practices? Maybe. However, Europe would be a hellhole under Russian dominance compared to our last 80 years.

[Mark]

Just like America was prepared to go to the brink over the soviet threat to put nukes in Cuba - NATO in Ukraine is not something Russia can allow on its borders.

Because of its aggression, Russia already has another NATO Member on it's borders (Finland)....

Ukraine was unlikely to join NATO before the invasion...
But depending on how this war ends, it's highly probable that Ukraine will soon join NATO...
Either with borders fully restored, or reduced in size after a negotiated settlement with Russia...

[Default0ptions]

Just like America was prepared to go to the brink over the soviet threat to put nukes in Cuba - NATO in Ukraine is not something Russia can allow on its borders.

Because of it's aggression, Russia already has another NATO Member on it's borders (Finland)....

Ukraine was unlikely to join NATO before the invasion...
But depending on how this war ends, it's highly probable that Ukraine will soon join NATO...
Either with borders fully restored, or reduced in size after a negotiated settlement with Russia...

I think you’re right about this ending with Ukraine reduced in size after a negotiated settlement with Russia. All that is in question is just how reduced it will be. The West giving the Ukraine longer range missiles just means that the rump Ukraine will be smaller and further from Russia to compensate.

There is no way that I can see of any other outcome from this conflict other than Russia forcing an unconditional surrender by Ukraine. I’m well aware that this is not the consensus view on this forum - so we’ll just have to see how that particular prediction works out.

Russia and Finland have a long history and I don’t believe that the Fins joining NATO will change much - but just as the USA couldn’t tolerate, for example, Russian Nukes in Mexico - Russia would probably fight again rather than allow NATO nukes in Finland.

The conditions for joining NATO include not actually being in conflict - Ukraine is in conflict right now and joining NATO under this existing condition would instantly force NATO into an unambiguous conflict with Russia. Both sides have credible and sufficient capacity to end such a conflict in mutually assured destruction.

A much reduced rump Ukraine after a peace settlement might be considered for NATO membership - but . . . what would be the point?

That’s my view and it will prove right or wrong by the way it actually plays out.

I reject the premise that this is due to “Russian aggression”. You don’t have to agree - but a balanced approach needs to see the situation from both sides.

[UndercoverElephant]

UE replied to my most recent post: “you … continue to think it is appropriate to continually personalise discussions in order to attempt to piss people off so much they leave the debate.”

Isn’t this post of yours UE, along with many other posts of yours, doing exactly that to me?

You are either a russian troll, or a complete f***ing idiot. If I was running this board, you would be banned…

UE: “And yes my best guess at a particular time about a particular thing was wrong.”

It was, wasn’t it? But my ‘best guess’ at that particular time was right. Wasn’t it.

OK, from now on every time you personalise this debate you will get the same two word response: F--k OFF.

***********NOBODY IS INTERESTED IN YOUR PERSONAL OBSESSION WITH ME************

[Default0ptions]

UE replied to my most recent post: “you … continue to think it is appropriate to continually personalise discussions in order to attempt to piss people off so much they leave the debate.”

Isn’t this post of yours UE, along with many other posts of yours, doing exactly that to me?

You are either a russian troll, or a complete f***ing idiot. If I was running this board, you would be banned…

UE: “And yes my best guess at a particular time about a particular thing was wrong.”

It was, wasn’t it? But my ‘best guess’ at that particular time was right. Wasn’t it.

OK, from now on every time you personalise this debate you will get the same two word response: F--k OFF.

***********NOBODY IS INTERESTED IN YOUR PERSONAL OBSESSION WITH ME************

Why go on about it then? Calm down dear! You’re really not that important you know.

[Mark]

The conditions for joining NATO include not actually being in conflict - Ukraine is in conflict right now and joining NATO under this existing condition would instantly force NATO into an unambiguous conflict with Russia. Both sides have credible and sufficient capacity to end such a conflict in mutually assured destruction.

A much reduced rump Ukraine after a peace settlement might be considered for NATO membership - but . . . what would be the point?

That’s my view and it will prove right or wrong by the way it actually plays out.

But you said that NATO in Ukraine is not something Russia can allow on its borders....?
Make your mind up....

This conflict has already led to Finland joining.
The odds are that Ukraine will join too as soon as the fighting stops....
That's a big loss of face for Putin and a massive degrading of Russia's military capability......

If I was Putin, I'd be more worried about China coming in through the back door than NATO...

[Default0ptions]

It’s quite acceptable for America to enforce its influence in its own backyard. And inevitable that it will fight to keep it so.

It’s quite acceptable for Russia to enforce its influence in its own backyard. And inevitable that it will fight to keep it so.

This is Realpolitik.

What is there to disagree about this?

[UndercoverElephant]

UE replied to my most recent post: “you … continue to think it is appropriate to continually personalise discussions in order to attempt to piss people off so much they leave the debate.”

Isn’t this post of yours UE, along with many other posts of yours, doing exactly that to me?



UE: “And yes my best guess at a particular time about a particular thing was wrong.”

It was, wasn’t it? But my ‘best guess’ at that particular time was right. Wasn’t it.

OK, from now on every time you personalise this debate you will get the same two word response: F--k OFF.

***********NOBODY IS INTERESTED IN YOUR PERSONAL OBSESSION WITH ME************

Why go on about it then?

Because you keep bringing it up, over and over and over and over again. How about you do the whole board a favour, and stop it?