Israel/palestine conflict, worsens.

[Ralphw2]

Gaza has had its food supply blockaded for some months. That is more than enough time for the stocks of baby formula to run out, whilst it's mother, who may be a well paid professional, has until recently been able to pay local market rates for what food is getting in.

Unfortunately starvation always affects the poor the most, even in war zones

[Yves75]

Population of Gaza since 1970 from Wikipedia page

Year Gaza
1970 0.34
1980 0.46
1990 0.65
2000 1.13
2010 1.60
2014 1.82

Difficult to find reliable numbers before 1970 but it is though that by 1950 the population of Gaza was about 200,000 including all refugees who arrived there from other parts of Israel.

As is usual with this site there are people who don't let facts get in the way of a good insult now and then.

Besides, if the Brits didn't create this ridiculous Jordan "Hachemite" state, solution would be easier ...

[Mark]

Yves, as is often the case, you've conflated being Jewish and the Israeli State...

What HAMAS did was clearly wrong, but what do you expect when you force people to live behind a wall ?
The Israeli State had to respond to the initial act, but I believe it has now gone well past a proportional response...
That's only my opinion though - I haven't got any skin in the game...

At the end of the day, Israelis and Palestinians need to live together...
What is happening today makes that less likely, rather than more likely...
All those frightened, starving and abused kids will become the terrorists of tomorrow...

[Yves75]

I didn't conflate anything.

But this is an Israelo Arab conflict as much as an Israelo Palestinian conflict.
From 48 to 67 the west bank was integrated in Jordan, and Gaza was under Egyptian occupation.
Nobody was talking about the "palestinian people" (up to 64 and the creation of the PLO)

Second, many people tend to forget that in Israel today more than 50% of Israeli jews are from Muslims countries that had to emigrate.
There is more than 20% Arabs Israeli citizens.

[Mark]

I didn't conflate anything.

But this is an Israelo Arab conflict as much as an Israelo Palestinian conflict.
From 48 to 67 the west bank was integrated in Jordan, and Gaza was under Egyptian occupation.
Nobody was talking about the "palestinian people" (up to 64 and the creation of the PLO)

Second, many people tend to forget that in Israel today more than 50% of Israeli jews are from Muslims countries that had to emigrate.
There is more than 20% Arabs Israeli citizens.

I'm not an expert in Israeli demographics, but I understand that Jews have gone to live there from all over the world, not just from Muslim countries.... Many have arrived from Russia I believe, as well as the US/UK..., and I guess France too ?

OK, maybe the Jews from certain countries didn't have a choice but to leave, but unfortunately you see that in countless ethnic conflicts all over the world. That's precisely the point I'm making - people need to learn to live together, or you get outcomes like we're seeing today in Israel/Gaza... Blowing up every home, school, hospital is only building resentment for generations to come...

I'm aware of the different dynamics from 48 to 67, but I disagree that nobody was talking about the Palestinian people before 1964 (no need for the insulting use of "...") In fact, my grandfather saw action with the Lancashire Loyals, policing the then British Mandate of Palestine during the 1936–1939 revolt there..., so I'm aware that it's very complex and many of the problems today are a hang-over from when us Brits created Israel...

[Yves75]

Looking at it on google ngram viewer (all books) is interesting :
https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?c ... moothing=3

or :
https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?c ... moothing=3

The point is that up to the Yom Kippur war (73) we were talking more of the Arab Israeli conflict than Israeli Palestinian conflict (and really the "palestinian nationalism" didn't really exist before the PLO and Arafat (who was born in Egypt in fact).

In french a bit different :
https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?c ... moothing=3

My point is that the Jews that were expelled more or less violently from the Arab/Muslims countries after 48, and a lot of them went to Israel, is an aspect that is almost not considered in the conflict.

And yes indeed a lot of Russian too (and quite a bit from North Africa went to France also yes)

[BritDownUnder]

Besides, if the Brits didn't create this ridiculous Jordan "Hachemite" state, solution would be easier ...

I don't think the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan is ridiculous. They were for many years a good friend of the West and a useful mediator in the Arab-Israeli conflict. What plans for Jordan do you have?
This Jewish plan, perhaps, from the 1930s when all those Jews you listed were living reasonably peaceful lives in Muslim countries as second class citizens. They called it the "Sole Solution".



We could have a discussion on the Jews in the French North African colonies before WW2 if you wish. How their support for France made them a little bit unpopular amongst their Arab neighbours. We could also discuss the rather rapid disappearance of most of the Arab population of the city of Haifa in 1948.

I think the Hashemite state was a British consolation prize for the Hashemis losing custody over Mecca and Medina to the Saudis in the 1920-30s. It was originally called the Emirate of Transjordan.

[adam2]

The food aid being sent by sea to Gaza has now arrived.
The supplies were transferred from a seagoing ship to a non powered barge, this being pushed to the shore by a couple of inflatable boats equipped with powerful outboard engines.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68581090

[Yves75]

Jordan was all about securing the indian route, and "completing the promise"(in a minimal way) of an Arab State (Lawrence and all that).
While still publishing the 1939 "white book" reversing the Balfour promise of a "Jewish Settlement" (reducing the allowed jewish immigration throughout the holocaust )
For sure this double fake promise is at the core of the current mess, and the Brits are clearly at the root of it !
Not to mention that Balfour was clearly an Antisemite in the line of "Christian Zionism" (strange eschatology stuff about the need of the jews to be in Israel for Christ to return or something).
I thought this stuff was typically American, but in fact it really started in Britain !

[BritDownUnder]

Seems a bit unnecessary given the UK had access to the Suez Canal to have another Indian route. I also thought that was why Mesopotamia was of interest to the UK in those days. As for the promise of an Arab state the French were also a little opposed to one in Syria after WW1 I believe.

Regarding Balfour being an anti-Semite, try telling that to the group Palestine Action who just slashed his portrait at Trinity College for his Declaration - they obviously didn't get the memo.

As for those religious beliefs try looking into British Israelism for some pretty odd religious and ethnic views.

The attitude of Palestinians in the form of Edward Said is that the British had no right to make such a declaration and that is my view as well. It might have been better to make a part of North-Western Germany a Jewish state in 1945.

On the subject of Jewish immigration, it was consistently opposed by the Palestinians in the Mandate, as most immigration everywhere is and has been opposed by the indigenous populations. I would guess that immigration to Palestine was reduced during the Holocaust because there was a war going on and the Germans did not allow many Jews to leave Europe at that time.

[BritDownUnder]

Balfour was an antisemite, if you don't know that down under, nothing I can do about it (maybe being the droplings of the pimps and whores sent there has to do with it or something, who knows .. )

You need to think more and write less. What I said that Balfour's portrait at a Cambridge College was slashed by Pro-Palestinians because they thought that he was a Zionist. I have no opinion from Down Under about Balfour's Zionism or Anti-Semitism as I never met him and really we don't care if the Arabs finish off the work that Hitler started and kill the rest of the Jews - I am totally ambivalent on the matter.

Maybe you need to stick to French language forums as you are missing the point on this one. Since I was born in the UK and moved to Australia aged 38 I have no relation to any of the progeny of convicts, pimps and whores that may or may not have been sent here in the 18th and 19th Century.

[Yves75]

you would have understood that Balfour was BOTH a Zionist and an antisemite.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism

EDITED BY ADMIN TO REMOVE INSULTS

[BritDownUnder]

Pity I and the rest of Australia missed those French Fried insults while we were all sleeping.

As for Balfour being both an anti-Semite and a Zionist you will have to keep us guessing on how he managed this. Maybe the British wanted rid of the Jews then just like the Arabs want rid of them now.

Couldn't you just have gone to Argentina, or Madagascar, somewhere else and saved the world a load of bother? If the United States stops supporting you and the polls there are pointing that way then you are going to be in a lot of trouble. Read up on the evacuation of Smyrna that happened in about 1922 or so and that is going to be what happens to you some time in the future - only where are you going to go? Who is going to put up with you?

[Yves75]

Couldn't you just have gone to Argentina, or Madagascar, somewhere else and saved the world a load of bother? If the United States stops supporting you and the polls there are pointing that way then you are going to be in a lot of trouble. Read up on the evacuation of Smyrna that happened in about 1922 or so and that is going to be what happens to you some time in the future - only where are you going to go? Who is going to put up with you?

lol, now I'm a jew
You are such a joke.

[BritDownUnder]

Lose the argument - resort to insults. The way of the ill educated on all forums.

In a few years Israel is going to be in trouble with a few aging friends in the US government.