Israel/palestine conflict, worsens.

[northernmonkey]

It's a weird one. Are US relations with Israel so bad they can't simply facilitate aid though Israeli infrastructure? Or is this the first step to a permanent US presence (peacekeeping?) in Gaza?

I don't think any of this makes sense because the American empire is no longer fully functioning. It's an empire in the early (and maybe not so early) stage of collapse and different parts of it are pulling in different directions simultaneously. So, it's full of contradictions.

[Default0ptions]

It's a weird one. Are US relations with Israel so bad they can't simply facilitate aid though Israeli infrastructure? Or is this the first step to a permanent US presence (peacekeeping?) in Gaza?

I don't think any of this makes sense because the American empire is no longer fully functioning. It's an empire in the early (and maybe not so early) stage of collapse and different parts of it are pulling in different directions simultaneously. So, it's full of contradictions.

I’m also quite curious about the US ‘peacekeeping’. I’m at a loss to think of an example of the US doing anything other than sowing discord and division in any of their uninvited interventions.

[UndercoverElephant]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68511606

Maritime corridor to Gaza to begin at weekend - Von der Leyen

I think this is far more important than the media is explaining to people. It deprives Israel of the capacity to use mass-starvation as a means of collective punishment. It is ultimately taking sovereign control of Gaza out of Israel's hands -- or rather it is the beginning of that process -- it's the thin end of the wedge. Once a temporary port is set up, given the situation, then we can be certain it will remain open for the forseeable future, and there is a high probability that it will become permanent. Biden's commitment today to a 2 state solution is also part of the same diplomatic shift away from Israel.

The international community has now implicitly acknowledged that it has a responsibility to prevent Israel from committing genocide in Gaza. How is Israel going to respond to this? In the past they have had only one tactic: vicious brutality. Their problem is that if they try to choose this path again, the US is now committed to upping support for Palestine. That is the relevance of the wedge.

[PS_RalphW]

Unfortunately a parachute failed to open on an air drop pallet today and killed Palestinians on the ground when it landed.

I fear the people on the ground will be so desperate that the US troops will end up shooting some of them to stop being overrun when the food finally starts to ship.

[BritDownUnder]

I was going to mention this parachute failure but you beat me to the draw. In a way it is rather tragi-comic that starving terrorists were killed by manna falling to them from heaven.

The bit about troops being needed on the ground to distribute aid is a bit more serious. It sounds like a re-run of the Somalia situation. Remember that? Starving Muslims who have exceeded their land's carrying capacity, Western and UN troops, criminal gangs and militia monopolising food supply, insurgent activity, kidnapping, terrorism, illegal migration, criminality against the host country then international piracy.
How it all ends.

That's why the West needs to stay out. They are a hopeless case. If the Arabs in other countries want to intervene then let them.

[northernmonkey]

I was going to mention this parachute failure but you beat me to the draw. In a way it is rather tragi-comic that starving terrorists were killed by manna falling to them from heaven.

The bit about troops being needed on the ground to distribute aid is a bit more serious. It sounds like a re-run of the Somalia situation. Remember that? Starving Muslims who have exceeded their land's carrying capacity, Western and UN troops, criminal gangs and militia monopolising food supply, insurgent activity, kidnapping, terrorism, illegal migration, criminality against the host country then international piracy.
How it all ends.

That's why the West needs to stay out. They are a hopeless case. If the Arabs in other countries want to intervene then let them.

You talk of the Palestinians in much the same way as I imagine the Germans talked about the Jews circa 1939-1945. Why not go all the way and call them vermin. You know you want to.

[invalid]

The way i see It, both sides are almost as bad as each other. One has simply been more successful over the past sixty years, and thus more able to enact its Will.

[BritDownUnder]

I was going to mention this parachute failure but you beat me to the draw. In a way it is rather tragi-comic that starving terrorists were killed by manna falling to them from heaven.

The bit about troops being needed on the ground to distribute aid is a bit more serious. It sounds like a re-run of the Somalia situation. Remember that? Starving Muslims who have exceeded their land's carrying capacity, Western and UN troops, criminal gangs and militia monopolising food supply, insurgent activity, kidnapping, terrorism, illegal migration, criminality against the host country then international piracy.
How it all ends.

That's why the West needs to stay out. They are a hopeless case. If the Arabs in other countries want to intervene then let them.

You talk of the Palestinians in much the same way as I imagine the Germans talked about the Jews circa 1939-1945. Why not go all the way and call them vermin. You know you want to.

Well to be truthfully honest, both sides are vermin. The world needs to avoid them both and the trouble they will get us into. There is something very wrong with both Jewish and Arab cultures and the intolerance and disdain in which they hold other cultures.

The West needs to be more like China in this regard. Stay out of it and say to them, you are most welcome to buy food or weapons off us, you pay cash and upfront and you don't get lectured and are most free to kill each other - just don't expect free food and political asylum at the end of it.

[UndercoverElephant]

With the benefit of a great deal of hindsight, "There is only one God and we are his chosen people" turned out to be a disastrous ideology both for the Jews and everybody else. Christianity tried to fix it with "There is only one God, and his people must choose him. Also, He doesn't need you to mutilate the genitals of your male infants, and you can eat pork and do work on Sundays." By the 6th century this plan had also gone wrong, so the Prophet tried to fix it again with "There is only one God and his followers must force the whole world to acknowledge Him as such."

If only the western world had adopted Hinduism/Buddhism/Taoism instead of inventing three mutually-antagonistic versions of Abrahamic monotheism we might be in a much better place.

[adam2]

A relief ship is to sail from Cyprus to Gaza very shortly https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68518918

[BritDownUnder]

If only the western world had adopted Hinduism/Buddhism/Taoism instead of inventing three mutually-antagonistic versions of Abrahamic monotheism we might be in a much better place.

Yes indeed! My best religious experience was visiting a temple in Hong Kong that was dedicated to and revered by three religions and unlike Jerusalem they were not fighting over it.

I can't even tell you which religions it was dedicated too but I think two were Taoism and Confucianism. No idea the third.

Regarding food supplies to Gaza the UK attitude should be as follows. "We understand you need food aid but we are awfully sorry but we are a net food importer and can't spare any of our food. We also run a trade and current account deficit and can't help you with the money either. Maybe you should ask the people who paid for your guns and materials to make Qassam rockets to help you."

[northernmonkey]

If only the western world had adopted Hinduism/Buddhism/Taoism instead of inventing three mutually-antagonistic versions of Abrahamic monotheism we might be in a much better place.

Yes indeed! My best religious experience was visiting a temple in Hong Kong that was dedicated to and revered by three religions and unlike Jerusalem they were not fighting over it.

I can't even tell you which religions it was dedicated too but I think two were Taoism and Confucianism. No idea the third.

Regarding food supplies to Gaza the UK attitude should be as follows. "We understand you need food aid but we are awfully sorry but we are a net food importer and can't spare any of our food. We also run a trade and current account deficit and can't help you with the money either. Maybe you should ask the people who paid for your guns and materials to make Qassam rockets to help you."

Who do you think supplied and subsidized the Israeli weapons? You know, the ones who stole the land and forcibly drove its hitherto occupants off it at gunpoint and is now committing genocide on their descendants

You have an a priori hatred of Muslims/brown skinned people and so don't give a damn what happens to them. Why not just come clean and admit it?

I say this,by the way, as someone who is not too fond of large number of Muslims living in these lands. They are just too dissimilar to the indigenous population to be assimilated properly. But, that's the thing. Its possible to hold that position without actually hating Muslims themselves.

[UndercoverElephant]

Its possible to hold that position without actually hating Muslims themselves.

Yes. If I had one chance to go back in time and do something to make the world a better place, I'd intervene to prevent Islam from ever happening in the first place. I think it is the worst of all religions. But that doesn't justify hating muslims and it certainly doesn't excuse genocide or justify denying that it is genocide.

[BritDownUnder]

The US is and always has been the major supplier of weapons to the Israelis. I think France is a close second and the UK way down the list. They also have a big indigenous arms industry.

A regards Muslims and Jews there is very little to choose between them regarding hate. If they don't bother me I am more than happy for them to kill each other in other lands. In general I dislike most foreigners.

The takeover of Israel from the Palestinians was a gradual process that took place before, during and after the British mandate and you should read up on it as should I. I see it as something that the British lost control of during the mandate particularly at the end of it. However I think the first big land purchases by Jewish organisations of land in the Jezreel valley were made in the 1890s during Ottoman times. In the early stages the Jewish organisations simply bought land off the Arab absentee landlords and kicked the Arab tenants off that land.

Going back to who owns the land is as old as the bible. You could say that land belongs to those who are strong enough to hold it by force of arms.

You could view the Palestinians in the same way as the 'Welfare Queens' that Ronald Reagan spoke about. They are given enough food and development aid by the West (mainly) that they have grown their numbers in the Gaza Strip beyond the capacity of the land to support them.

There is an interesting map of Israel's demography here. Too big to put on this page but interesting where the Arabs and Jews live and how much of Israel proper is still populated by Arabs particularly the land away from the coast and in Galilee and in the Negev. About 18% of Israel's (pre-1967 borders) population is Arab.

Population of Gaza since 1970 from Wikipedia page

Year Gaza
1970 0.34
1980 0.46
1990 0.65
2000 1.13
2010 1.60
2014 1.82

Difficult to find reliable numbers before 1970 but it is though that by 1950 the population of Gaza was about 200,000 including all refugees who arrived there from other parts of Israel.

As is usual with this site there are people who don't let facts get in the way of a good insult now and then.

[Forever_Winter]

Weird. I'm watching the Channel 4 coverage in Gaza and some woman (who apparently works at the hospital) looks well - fed, is wearing makeup, and has really good teeth, and yet her baby is almost starving. Seems really odd optics, given that she appears wealthy. Doesn't pass the smell test, sorry.