Migrant watch (merged topic)

[UndercoverElephant]

https://twitter.com/frasernelson/status ... 6917144577?

Huge drop in arrivals from Albania (which once made up almost half of small-boat arrivals) after deportation deal agreed.

Flights with deportees now leave weekly for Albania, eroding incentive to pay £3,000 to people traffickers for small-boat crossing.

More on Spectator data hub:
https://data.spectator.co.uk/asylum

[mr brightside]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-66289857

New neighbours moving in. Personally i don't think it goes anywhere near far enough, i think an old oil tanker would be better, converted like in the movie Escape Plan.

[BritDownUnder]

That plane full of Indians that was stopped in France over the weekend seems to have made the news with the them chartering the whole plane but it has probably been going on for a long time.

[Default0ptions]

I just wonder how, given that total area of the UK is approximately 248,532 square kilometres (95,960 sq mi), we can fit everyone else in - and given that’s impossible, what are we going to do to stop them coming?

Because stop them we must, eventually.

Of course if they’re just coming here because they want to live in a country with a strong (well, in theory) rule of law, welfare state, property rights, infrastructure etc: perhaps we should go out and help them achieve that in their own countries.

We could call it ‘colonialism’

[northernmonkey]

With the collapse of industrial civilisation worldwide, the pull and push factors driving mass illegal migrations of people will only stop when either:

the places they are migrating to become as wretched as the places they are migrating from making the wretchedness of the places they are migrating from not seem so wretched by comparison.

or

the personal consequences of trying to illegally migrate are made sufficiently wretched for said migrants as to make the wretchedness of where they are migrating from not seem so wretched by comparison.

They cant be blamed for trying to get here. But we have neither the room nor the resources. It will get very messy in the years to come and probably bloody.

[Default0ptions]

Yeah if I’d been born in the third world I’d be doing all I could to get to a better place.

So I don’t blame them.

The problem remains, though, that we really can’t fit everyone who wants to come here into our pretty small country.

Last century’s solution was to go out into the world and enforce enough stability for us to profit from it.

Since we gave them independence and they trashed it (eg Rhodesia was the bread basket of Africa under colonial rule and is now a degenerate aid basket case) what are we to do?

We really do have limited resources and space.

We really can’t take in the whole of the rest of the world.

So what can we do?

[Ralphw2]

Ah I still hear so many echos of colonial empire on this thread. We went out and conquered a quarter of the world's landmass. We did it to enrich ourselves. We may, in some cases, have introduced industry and education and more productive farming methds, but we did it to better exploit the resources of the land. We weren't the only country doing it, and in many cases we gave up our colonial holdings in a relatively benign way. In others we were kicked out, or we killed off so many of the original population (accidentally or deliberately) that they remained white Christian dominated societies at independance. I know at least one of my relatives was in colonial India, and shocked the folks back home by marrying a local and bringing her back to England in the 1930s.

We are facing real problems now that , in large part as a result of that fossil fueled industrialisation, and the indudstrial scale agriculture, large parts of the world now face famine from climate change, over exploitation of land and sea resources and over population. We are going to have to chose who and how many people we let in as we head down the economic and climate decay curve and demographic change. We have the natural advantage of being a set of islands, but I find the concept of the nation state as a natural social unit a convenient excuse to ignore the huge moral debt we owe to so many millions of people around the world, a debt we can never repay, but one we should acknowledge, and reflect with humility about how lucky we are as individuals to be born in a country that is still rich as a result of the exploitation of resources of so much of the world. Really, property is theft at the end of the day.

[Default0ptions]

Yeah. So how do we fix the migrant problem right now?

Let in all comers? Or machine gun the boats?

We have a choice, but no matter what you think of that choice - we really can’t take in the whole of the rest of the world.

Can we?

[clv101]

Don't conflate the 'migrant problem' with small boats, the *vast majority* of migrants arrive here legally. This government has specially allowed additional hundreds of thousands here and knowing its political unpopular is trying hide this policy choice behind a small number of folk arriving in small boats. Don't fall for it.

[BritDownUnder]

30,000 to 40,000 a year on boats is still quite a few. They are mainly Muslims, mainly male heads of families and will try and bring their families o the UK in time. So maybe a 5 times multiplier. Compare that with the number of births in the UK, about 600,000, a lot of which are also Muslims and you quite quickly are looking at a Muslim majority in the UK sometime in the late 21st Century. Not that I have anything against Muslims but countries which move to Muslim majorities, like Kosovo, Lebanon and Bosnia tend to have civil wars shortly afterwards.

Happily, I expect the economy and ecological carrying capacity of the UK, maybe even the whole world, to collapse before that happens.

[UndercoverElephant]

Don't conflate the 'migrant problem' with small boats, the *vast majority* of migrants arrive here legally. This government has specially allowed additional hundreds of thousands here and knowing its political unpopular is trying hide this policy choice behind a small number of folk arriving in small boats. Don't fall for it.

That doesn't mean the boats aren't a real problem. At the end of the day, the legal migration route is theoretically under government control -- if they wanted to do something about it, they could. In terms of sheer numbers the boats are much less relevant, but there's a real threat that it can and will get much worse and it is not clear that the government can do anything to stop it without withdrawing from international treaties.

[northernmonkey]

The "legal" migration" is also a problem. In the end, the bigger problem. Certainly no-one voted for it. But, then, "democracy" was never intended to be... you know... democratic.

But, the illegal migration is the coal face of it.

[Default0ptions]

The question remains - how many CAN we afford to allow in. We’re already in the ludicrous position of putting immigrants up in hotels.

How many more can we accommodate and how will we stop them when we decide that we’re full?

[UndercoverElephant]

Given that both the sustainable and optimum population of the British Isles is somewhere well below half the current level (surely, right?) then we cannot afford to let any of them in. What is actually needed is a policy of immigration minimisation -- a deliberate policy of encouraging and ensuring that people already living here can and will do all the jobs which need to be done, from doctors to fruit pickers. As for the people coming in boats, and other illegal migration, I think what will eventually happen is that the existing international agreements will have to be recognised as anachronistic. It is only a matter of time until countries start withdrawing from those treaties, and that will open doors to considerably more robust means of stopping migration.

[mr brightside]

Yeah. So how do we fix the migrant problem right now?

I think we should convert a massive cargo ship and beach it off the coast, just too far for someone to swim, then start filling it up. Keep it supplied with basic rations and keep the bogs pumped out; the migrants themselves can run it like an independent state.