Is Democracy the Best form of Government

[Default0ptions]

This is partially inspired by Ralph’s complaint about the ‘rabid right wing’ in America defunding Ukraine.

America is a democracy - so any right wing, left wing or otherwise affiliated or inclined actors in government actually have a democratic right to be there and influence things.

Sorry Ralph - you’ll have to get busy at the hustings in America to put your views up for the judgement of the people.

I’ve long held the belief that any democracy just gets ‘the best government money can buy’ - ie big money actually controls policy; and the revolving door where today’s regulators are tomorrow’s non executive directors of the very bodies they were regulating … is pretty obviously not ideal.

I don’t have any real solution to this, but I do wonder sometimes if members of parliament should just be randomly selected like jurors and forbidden to profit from their time in office.

[BritDownUnder]

Good Democracies tend to get the highest participation rate. As Winston said "Democracy is the worst form of government - except for all the others".

Hong Kong as an example as a country (or entity anyway) where democracy in on the retreat. They had a 71% participation in a poll where candidates were not vetted before standing. Now they are moved to a system where candidates are vetted before standing by the Communists and the turnout was 29% of eligible voters.

Let's not forget that the 2016 and 2020 US Presidential elections had some of the highest turnouts in US election history.

Where democracy patently fails is in long term planning in things such as energy transition or in preventing mass migration. It is also very vulnerable to external meddling and in the era of social media, particularly so.

[Default0ptions]

Yeah good points BDU, thanks for that.

[northernmonkey]

The problem with democracy is the same problem with any form of government.

Governments are the product of civilizations and civilizations are the product of the concentration, via peaceful means or not, of the primary means of production.

Once the primary means of production are concentrated in to the hands of a minority, all of the problems associated with poor governance (in terms of servicing the interests of the majority) become inevitable, whatever system of governance is in place.

Corrupt governance (including corrupt democratic governance) is an inevitable feature of civilization. This is as good as it was ever going to get. Indeed, I suspect that the least corrupt form of government is a benign dictatorship. That is to say, the same issue with the centralization of the primary means of production still exists. But, said dictator wants only the best for his people.

It should be pretty obvious, however, that the above is a very short lived and highly unstable phenomenon and always, in the end, reverts to malign dictatorship.

There are no answers I believe and so I'd say don't look for them. That is to say, any answers would require the end of civilization and that will only happen if it is forced on humans.

[Default0ptions]

Plato’s Republic still has some useful insights on the problem of government.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_(Plato)

I’m not quite sure what my views are on this - but I don’t think that our current system of democracy is doing us any good.

Hence my question to Ralph above and his objections to ‘rabid right wing’ politicians in America - who are there as a direct result of democracy.

[Ralphw2]

They are there because the democratic process in the USA has been manipulated and subverted to serious degree, to the extent that it was almost violently overthrown three years ago, yet the blatant leader of that insurrection is allowed to stand again and make public promises of retribution against those who helped sustain the legal process previously or currently. The electoral college is arcane, open to blatant political corruption at all levels, and is so expensive to compete in, that only those with extremely rich backers or independent wealth can compete, resulting in government by the extremely rich for the extremely rich. There is little to choose in geopolitical terms between the two parties that have completely controlled the country for more than two centuries, but the Republicans now have partisan control of so much of the apparatus of state that there is a very little chance of the true wishes of the majority population ever being heard, if they ever have. Not that any country could demonstrate true democracy.

The US electoral college gives for more representation to the smallest states proportionate to population, for a start.

[Default0ptions]

Well that’s a long winded way of acknowledging that the US is actually non-democratic in your view.

I agree.

So - remind me: what’s all the business about the US, the ‘leader of the free world’, championing an ideal of democracy that it demonstrably fails to uphold itself?

[northernmonkey]

Well that’s a long winded way of acknowledging that the US is actually non-democratic in your view.

I agree.

So - remind me: what’s all the business about the US, the ‘leader of the free world’, championing an ideal of democracy that it demonstrably fails to uphold itself?

Oh, that was a very Plato-esque trap you set there....

[Default0ptions]

Well that’s a long winded way of acknowledging that the US is actually non-democratic in your view.

I agree.

So - remind me: what’s all the business about the US, the ‘leader of the free world’, championing an ideal of democracy that it demonstrably fails to uphold itself?

Oh, that was a very Plato-esque trap you set there.... :lol:

And still a serious question that needs addressing. O.o

[Forever_Winter]

The robots have taken over the asylum

[Default0ptions]

The robots have taken over the asylum :(

Well that’s an interesting contribution to the discussion and offers a good insight into the eternal hibernian mindset.

(Just on the likelihood of you thinking that the hibernian reference has anything to do with Scottish football - it doesn’t - though it’s original referent is Ireland; so I’m just forcing the words into the Procrustean bed that you’ve made for yourself and now have to lie in)

Do you actually have anything more useful to say?

If all you can come up with is: “The robots have taken over the asylum” you’re probably better off on TikTok

[johnny]

Well that’s a long winded way of acknowledging that the US is actually non-democratic in your view.

I agree.

So - remind me: what’s all the business about the US, the ‘leader of the free world’, championing an ideal of democracy that it demonstrably fails to uphold itself?

Well, January 6 2021 was the example of Democracy upholding itself. And it is not an ideal democracy....just a long lived one. Round 2 might be more dangerous to the idea of democracy in America than Round 1, but we'll see.

Maybe Americans will realize they have to make it work, they were formed by refusing to bootlick Kings, an original or backup system for others not so dedicated to the idea, who still seem to idolize or hoping to be ruled that way.

[Forever_Winter]

Well that’s a long winded way of acknowledging that the US is actually non-democratic in your view.

I agree.

So - remind me: what’s all the business about the US, the ‘leader of the free world’, championing an ideal of democracy that it demonstrably fails to uphold itself?

Well, January 6 2021 was the example of Democracy upholding itself. And it is not an ideal democracy....just a long lived one. Round 2 might be more dangerous to the idea of democracy in America than Round 1, but we'll see.

Maybe Americans will realize they have to make it work, they were formed by refusing to bootlick Kings, an original or backup system for others not so dedicated to the idea, who still seem to idolize or hoping to be ruled that way.

Actually Johnny I agree with most of that. I don't normally agree with what you but you're right in some points. As for the King, the jury is out. Happy New Year

[Default0ptions]

Well that’s a long winded way of acknowledging that the US is actually non-democratic in your view.

I agree.

So - remind me: what’s all the business about the US, the ‘leader of the free world’, championing an ideal of democracy that it demonstrably fails to uphold itself?

Well, January 6 2021 was the example of Democracy upholding itself. And it is not an ideal democracy....just a long lived one. Round 2 might be more dangerous to the idea of democracy in America than Round 1, but we'll see.

Maybe Americans will realize they have to make it work, they were formed by refusing to bootlick Kings, an original or backup system for others not so dedicated to the idea, who still seem to idolize or hoping to be ruled that way.

Yeah Johnny, I agree.

Of course we sometimes behead kings instead

[johnny]

Maybe Americans will realize they have to make it work, they were formed by refusing to bootlick Kings, an original or backup system for others not so dedicated to the idea, who still seem to idolize or hoping to be ruled that way.

Yeah Johnny, I agree.
Of course we sometimes behead kings instead

And Americans assassinate their Presidents. guns..Guns..GUNS! All 4 of them. 'MURIKA!

Citizens are allowed their own means of correcting flaws in the system, when push comes to shove.