Israel/palestine conflict, worsens.

[BritDownUnder]

Stockholm Syndrome anyone?

[Default0ptions]

Stockholm Syndrome anyone?

Bit of a short timescale for that BDU but could be. Also are they still holding a relative?

[Ralphw2]

I think no one is going to be rude to the murderous kidnappers still holding your loved one.

This seems to be a case where Christianity has one up on both Judaism and Islam. An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.

Not that many nominally Christian countries have often turned the other cheek. Ultimately all wars are resource wars and religion is just a means to motivate your fighters.

[clv101]

Israel have now dropped around 12,000 tonnes of ordnance on Gaza strip (Hiroshima / Little Boy was ~15kT) - they would have saved a lot of jet fuel by just using half a dozen of their nuclear artillery rounds. Civilian casualties are... hard to count... but after 20 days, could be similar order to Ukraine's after 20 months of Russia's 'full scale invasion'.

[UndercoverElephant]

Ultimately all wars are resource wars and religion is just a means to motivate your fighters.

I don't agree.

Absolutely nothing to do with resources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Years%27_War

That was a war about one thing only: who gets to decide what is the Official Truth.

The Troubles in Northern Ireland weren't about resources either. Northern Ireland hasn't got any resources worth having. And if you trace it back to its roots it turns out to have been about religion all along.

[clv101]

Are we about to see the genocide in real time of 1.1 million people?

It certainly looks like we're on the eve of something like genocide or ethnic cleansing.

They are taking their time with the inevitable ground offensive. I do think, despite the soundbites, western leaders are urging restraint. What's the end game? There must be limits to Israeli brutality beyond which even UK/US support wavers.

Huge number of people and armour have been assembled, are training, preparing. A fortnight of bombing and siege must be significantly weaking Hamas, but thousands of fighters embedded in an complex urban environment, who have probably already accepted they aren't getting out of this alive is a nightmare for the IDF who really can't accept hundreds of causalities.

Syria is believed to have used small amounts of sarin back 2013... generally speaking, chemical weapons aren't of much military value, however, this kind of battle is one where they could be effective - surely Israel wouldn't consider chemical weapons to clear the tunnels?

Former US deputy assistant secretary of defense responsible for chemical and biological defense Dr. Bill Richardson said in 1998 "I have no doubt that Israel has worked on both chemical and biological offensive things for a long time... There's no doubt they've had stuff for years." link

[Default0ptions]

“Israel Delays Gaza Invasion (Again) As US Scrambles To Put Missile Defenses In Place”

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/ ... kets-golan

Its panic stations for the US bases / occupations across the region if Lebanon, Iran, Syria, Turkey get pissed off enough to call the Israeli bluff.

[Ralphw2]

The irony of the Jewish state using poison gas would be lost on no one.

[UndercoverElephant]

There must be limits to Israeli brutality beyond which even UK/US support wavers.

Must there? It looks to me like we've already breached any acceptable limit. The Israeli's are intent on full-blown genocide, and our government is supporting it.

Syria is believed to have used small amounts of sarin back 2013... generally speaking, chemical weapons aren't of much military value, however, this kind of battle is one where they could be effective - surely Israel wouldn't consider chemical weapons to clear the tunnels?

Of course they would. Then they will deny it, and our government will be complicit in the lie.

[BritDownUnder]

Syria is believed to have used small amounts of sarin back 2013... generally speaking, chemical weapons aren't of much military value, however, this kind of battle is one where they could be effective - surely Israel wouldn't consider chemical weapons to clear the tunnels?

According to the Torygraph the Israelis are thinking about using some kind of quick expanding and solidifying foam in the upcoming tunnel battles.

As for Chemical or Biological weapons, I think spreading some kind of contagion in a tightly packed place like Gaza could be of benefit to the Israelis.

I don't things will move fast from now on. It's all about prolonging the suffering for both sides. I am surprised by France's strident support for Israel. They are normally very cowardly in such situations. Maybe that Theatre massacre and the truck attack on people on the Riviera a few years ago have stiffened their resolve.

Israel have now dropped around 12,000 tonnes of ordnance on Gaza strip (Hiroshima / Little Boy was ~15kT) - they would have saved a lot of jet fuel by just using half a dozen of their nuclear artillery rounds. Civilian casualties are... hard to count... but after 20 days, could be similar order to Ukraine's after 20 months of Russia's 'full scale invasion'.

I was thinking about this too. How to land an amount of explosives accurately on a target in the most economic way possible. Not necessarily nuclear but that might come. To land a one tonne bomb on a target, the bomb might only contain 300kg of explosives might take some 1000 litres of jet fuel the plane to loiter etc. I think a better system may be some kind of mortar like the siege mortars used by the Germans in WW2 or the US Little David type.

Israelis have also been collapsing a lot of buildings in Gaza with precision bombs. If the bomb plus delivery system costs, say $1m, and the building replacement cost say, $10m, then you could say this is a useful economic attack too. Not to mention costs of deaths and injuries too. This certainly forms part of Putin's calculus in Ukraine and probably that of the Israelis too.

[UndercoverElephant]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67223796

On the horror in the Middle East, and in particular whether there should be a ceasefire in Israel's bombardment of Gaza, the prime minister and Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer have the same position.

Israel has a right to defend itself, they argue, and neither use the word "ceasefire".

The Scottish National Party has a different position: they do advocate a ceasefire.

Sir Keir, alongside the prime minister, is arguing there should be "humanitarian pauses" to allow aid into Gaza and people out.

But that is not the same as a ceasefire, even though it would involve the firing ceasing for some period of time.

There is a growing sense of discomfort, and in some instances anger, within the Labour movement about Sir Keir's position.

This is going to be interesting. If Starmer continues to back Israel, as it commits genocide, then he's in big trouble with his party and maybe his core support.

[Default0ptions]

BDU: “Israelis have also been collapsing a lot of buildings in Gaza with precision bombs. If the bomb plus delivery system costs, say $1m, and the building replacement cost say, $10m, then you could say this is a useful economic attack too.”

You think that Gaza has $10m dollars to replace each building hit? Or that building replacement vs destruction is a sane metric to apply in this situation?

[Default0ptions]

UE: “This is going to be interesting. If Starmer continues to back Israel, as it commits genocide, then he's in big trouble with his party and maybe his core support.”

I agree UE. In fact I think he’s already in big trouble with both. There doesn’t seem to be any politician or party who dares to say it like it is’ here

[johnny]

Secondly, yes it is getting your arse handed to you when you run away so fast from the very people (eg the Taliban) you set out to ‘take a country away from’ (eg Afghanistan) twenty years ago that you have to abandon $7 billion worth of military equipment, get your planes mobbed on the runway and don’t even have the time to let your allies know that you’re going to run away https://edition.cnn.com/2022/04/27/poli ... index.html

Jealous that your countrymen can't even take over the country in the first place still?

How many American servicemen died by the usual brand of suicide bombings and whatnot when we decided to finally leave? 13
How many American servicemen died holding the country the prior year before that? 1 Probably fell down some stairs or something. Choked on a date. About the rate of dead servicemen after taking over a country when done right. But DAMN was it expensive, and as we now know, no one appreciated it. So giving it back was all that was left. <shrug>

So...yes...our arse was kicked.....after yawning in boredom at owning the joint with the loss of a single serviceperson for the final year while doing it, we got bored and left. An arse kicking is what a bunch of local yokels did to King George III when it turned out that all the exceptional had fled for greener pastures and then decided that they didn't need the genes of the incompetent Old Worlders intermingled anymore with what happened next. Worked out pretty well across the board. Certainly the UK can't backstop NATO. Hell, you can't build the aircraft to fly off a little carrier best kept patrolling fishing rights without using American fighter aircraft. Oh that's right....you didn't invent airplanes either...that was them exceptional folks again.

How many satellites you launch on Britain rockets from Britain nowadays? Who built those Trident missiles you use in your subs? Do you think Britain has energy poverty because you lack the resources, or just the wherewithall to do what Americans have done? Like you know, world's largest oil and gas producer, largest gas exporter, and all from the kind of rock you've got on the island but gee....that 2 or 3 kilometers under the land might as well be rockets into space to nuclear missiles for your subs....and all that other stuff along the way.

[Default0ptions]

Johnny. Yada yada. You got your arse kicked. Enough distraction from the topic of this thread though