Israel/palestine conflict, worsens.

[Default0ptions]

I’m still not sure what the US aircraft carrier groups and the amphibious assault group think they can achieve here.

Are they going to invade and hold most of the Middle East?

In any serious war scenario carrier groups are sunk outright in short order.

US nuclear retaliation threat? The US is scarily likely to act on that if pushed to the brink. But so are all the nuclear players.

And the carriers still get sunk.

I fear that the US is about to get its bluff called big style and I just hope its final delusions of grandeur don’t bring the whole of the world down with it.

I’m not sure it’s left room for itself to exit the whole world stage as quiescently as it pulled out of most of its interventions since the Second World War with its tail between its legs.

God bless America

[Default0ptions]

Here are a couple of remarkable / horrific numbers.

Russia's 'full scale invasion' of Ukraine, where the brutality, the indiscriminate, nature of the terror attacks on civilian infrastructure has been highlighted, war crime accusations levied etc... there have been a total of 9,614 civilians killed (554 children), February 24, 2022 to September 10, 2023: https://www.statista.com/statistics/129 ... asualties/

Up to date figures from Gaza are harder to pin down, but this Reuters article says 3,800 killed and separately Save the Children a few days ago said over 1,000 children had been killed.

Two points. Firstly, given how much ordnance Russia has deployed, civilian deaths have been remarkably low compared to Gaza. If Russia had wanted to brutally, indiscriminately, kill civilians in Ukraine they could have killed an order of magnitude more. Secondly, wow, what are Israel doing if not brutally, indiscriminately, killing civilians? And they haven't even put boots on the ground yet. Their spoke people repeat on the hour, every hour that they don't target civilians, issue warning etc but come on, thousands of civilians in a matter of days?

I agree entirely Clv. I did mention in a previous post that Russia seemed spectacularly unsuccessful in killing civilians compared to recent US/NATO actions. And Israel is doing even better with the ‘killing civilians indiscriminately’ figures than anything US/NATO or Russia has managed so far.

[Default0ptions]

Oh this just takes the biscuit:

Israeli lawmaker Amir Weitmann…

‘"Russia is supporting the enemies of Israel, Russia is supporting Nazi people who want to commit genocide on us, and Russia will pay the price [...]. We are going to finish with these Nazis, we're going to win this war [...] we're not forgetting what you are doing [...] we will come, we will make sure that Ukraine wins, we will make sure that you pay the price for what you have done," the close ally of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu continued.’

But, the article continues,

‘Since the start of the Gaza-Israel war, the Russian government has continuously called for a peaceful resolution.’

https://new.thecradle.co/articles/russi ... ahu-deputy

[Potemkin Villager]

It may be non PC but am I right in surmising that Netinyahoo and his political pals
are a bunch of raving nutters?

[UndercoverElephant]

It may be non PC but am I right in surmising that Netinyahoo and his political pals
are a bunch of raving nutters?

The correct word is "nazis", I think. Nazis calling the victims of their genocide "nazis".

[Potemkin Villager]

There does seem to be a truly terrible historical symmetry here involving chilling
notions like a Greater Israel, Lebensraum and Anschluss not too mention
all those Untermenschen getting in the way.

One thing that really stinks is just how Hamas managed to plan and execute
the incursion and indiscriminate massacre of so many, apparently initially undetected for some time,
without one of the most formidably motivated intelligence apparats in the world noticing it!

[johnny]

I’m still not sure what the US aircraft carrier groups and the amphibious assault group think they can achieve here.

A common thought I imagine, among those who have neither the wherewithall to build nor deploy one. A single American nuke carrier has a larger air wing than 70% of the countries on this globe. Perhaps having a decent sized and top flight air group on standby is just a smart move in places that are unsettled.

Are they going to invade and hold most of the Middle East?

Of course not. We tried it for a decade or a two, and Americans can't nation build for squat. I don't think we've forgotten that since we gave those countries back.

In any serious war scenario carrier groups are sunk outright in short order.

Well, it has been 62 years of American nuke carriers roaming the world during all sorts of serious war scenarios and...darn it....I can't recall the number sunk? Of course, folks who aren't American might think "serious" is far different than what it means when America gets "serious" as well.

Based on countries that have nuke powered carrier strike groups it seems to me that only one country has been serious. (Really, the French? Fine, they've got a baby carrier). No one has even been serious enough to even try and take one on. I'm betting that this is indication that every potential enemy knows the consequences of getting "serious" with an American carrier...and for some reason....wants nothing to do with it. Maybe they know something internet geniuses don't?

US nuclear retaliation threat? The US is scarily likely to act on that if pushed to the brink. But so are all the nuclear players. And the carriers still get sunk.

Well, the jealous might HOPE the carriers get sunk anyway. I'm betting that anyone who attacks a CSG, let alone sinks the carrier, will be amazed at what happens next. While America might stand still for taking massive losses in wars like Gulf War 1 or Gulf War 2 (hundreds died knocking off huge armies!) taking out a carrier will justify an AMAZING response.

God bless America

For centuries now. Ever since a bunch of misfits kicked the crap out of a global power they have forged quite a history of what exceptional can look like compared to..you know...the Old World.

[Default0ptions]

Johnny: “Well, it has been 62 years of American nuke carriers roaming the world during all sorts of serious war scenarios and...darn it....I can't recall the number sunk? Of course, folks who aren't American might think "serious" is far different than what it means when America gets "serious" as well.”

The US has had its arse handed back to it on a plate by pretty much every third world country that it’s tried to invade and hold. I don’t need to list them.

The US has never dared to take on a serious opponent, probably because it keeps getting its arse handed back to it on a plate by the third world countries it tries to coerce militarily.

Johnny:

“[America has] forged quite a history of what exceptional can look like“ - the fiascos of Saigon, Afghanistan etc? The naked bullshit in the UN about Iraq’s WMD? Your third world tent cities in your major population centres? The most expensive rip off health care system in entire world?

Yes. Your carriers will get sunk in the opening of any serious war against you.

It’s sad to see a once great nation like yours sink to the depths of irrelevance that the rest of the world sees you have come to - but you brought it on yourselves.

[BritDownUnder]

If I was the US Navy I would bring back the Iowa-class battleships. Carrying nine 16 inch guns firing a one tonne shell 20 miles and having 12 inches of armour stopping those pesky anti-ship missiles or explosive laden speedboats they should become a familiar sight off the Lebanese coast. Ready to tear up Lebanon's remaining infrastructure if they decide to become naughty.

One has to wonder if shells this large can be made to be GPS-guided.

[johnny]

The US has had its arse handed back to it on a plate by pretty much every third world country that it’s tried to invade and hold. I don’t need to list them.

Doing something like taking a country away from its owners....trying to make them all proper...getting bored and handing it back to them isn't getting your arse handed to you. Hell, America started its history kicking the crap out of the biggest and baddest....nowadays we have to get BORED and then the leftovers of the world pretend it is a loss. Vietnam...that one I'll go for a loss, if only because the idiots in charge couldn't channel a little of what happened in 1776.

The US has never dared to take on a serious opponent, probably because it keeps getting its arse handed back to it on a plate by the third world countries it tries to coerce militarily.

You mean...a serious opponent has taken on us. I wonder why...maybe it has something to do with those carriers that haven't been sunk but those wallowing in fantasy who can't even build their own are feeling a little...left out of the big boy club?

Yes. Your carriers will get sunk in the opening of any serious war against you.

Well maybe if your country even had what it took to build one for yourself you might realize where all this jealousy comes from, and then requires you to pretend to be tough on behalf of others. 62 years and counting...WHEN do you figure you'll grow some hair on your peaches at LEAST like the French?

[johnny]

One has to wonder if shells this large can be made to be GPS-guided.

If it can be done we can be sure of one thing. It won't be Default0ptions and his countrymen making it happen. From either the perspective of having built the best battleships ever (with maybe one Japanese one in there), fought them globally across decades, put them away, brought them back into action, having a couple still just waiting for old tech made better with new tech if needed, and of course bringing them up to modern fire control and guidance standards. A battleship with the kind of range imagined using M270 rocket boosted technology? Shoot them out the 16" gun barrels? Gut the internals of the turrets and put in magazines to feed rocket launch tubes? Whatever they might become, no one else has them, any more than they do a trio of them just sitting around waiting for that imaginary real enemy that hasn't been found since the US decided to build CSGs instead.

[mr brightside]

I was watching a pop quiz Q&A on the conflict on the BBC news at 6 last night. Basically watchers with little knowledge were asking Auntie's best their questions. One guy asked how the conflict started, which could have been interpreted one of two ways, the most recent saga or the historical beginnings. The BBC representative answered that it started with the recent terrorist attack on Israel by Hamas, and there was i expecting an answer going back decades, which would have been a more honest answer in my opinion. I really got the feeling the BBC were engaging in pro Israeli propaganda, i was very disappointed.

[clv101]

This podcast with Helen Thompson (author of the really excellent geopolitics book, Disorder) is the best content I've come across on the geopolitical lead up to this latest conflict:
https://unherd.com/podcasts/the-israel-hamas-war/

[Default0ptions]

Johnny: “Doing something like taking a country away from its owners....trying to make them all proper...getting bored and handing it back to them isn't getting your arse handed to you.”

Firstly, you seem to think that trying to do that is something you should be admired for. Kind of sums up the current US mentality.

Secondly, yes it is getting your arse handed to you when you run away so fast from the very people (eg the Taliban) you set out to ‘take a country away from’ (eg Afghanistan) twenty years ago that you have to abandon $7 billion worth of military equipment, get your planes mobbed on the runway and don’t even have the time to let your allies know that you’re going to run away https://edition.cnn.com/2022/04/27/poli ... index.html

Thirdly, “More than two-thirds of [US] active duty service members are within the overweight or obese ranges of the body mass index, according to a report by the American Security Project” https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your ... ort-finds/

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Default0ptions]

Two seemingly irreconcilable reports on the same situation after the release of the hostage Yocheved Lifshitz.

“[One]side had her saying she was beaten and mistreated and locked underground, while the other side quoted her stating her captors were very gentle, tended to all her needs, made sure she had the medical attention she needed etc. When they released her, she thanked them and shook their hands.”

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1716754298896302452

It’s almost impossible to find anything remotely like independent reporting anymore - but perhaps it was always thus.