Israel/palestine conflict, worsens.

[Ralphw2]

So Hamas has launched a surprise attack on Israel, causing significant casualties and taking hostages. The timing of this must clearl have been agreed with Iran and presumably Russia, and is clearly designed as a distraction from Ukraine, and an attempt to sow disunity although I am not sure how. Much as I dislike Israeli control and attacks on Palestinians, using collective punishment extensively, major retribution by Israel is inevitable, and will result in thousands dead on the Palestinian side. Then that may be cover for some countries to switch between political blocks on the basis that my enemy’s enemy is my friend.

[Default0ptions]

So Hamas has launched a surprise attack on Israel, causing significant casualties and taking hostages. The timing of this must clearl have been agreed with Iran and presumably Russia, and is clearly designed as a distraction from Ukraine, and an attempt to sow disunity although I am not sure how. Much as I dislike Israeli control and attacks on Palestinians, using collective punishment extensively, major retribution by Israel is inevitable, and will result in thousands dead on the Palestinian side. Then that may be cover for some countries to switch between political blocks on the basis that my enemy’s enemy is my friend.

As usual Ralph there’s little surprise to those who know anything about recent events there.

This from October the 5th: https://www.newarab.com/news/over-800-i ... und-sukkot


“More than 800 Israeli settlers stormed the Al-Aqsa Mosque compound in occupied East Jerusalem on Thursday morning under the protection of Israeli forces.

Rabbis, heads of settlement associations, and far-right university lecturers were among 832 people who forced their way into the religious site compound, a source in the Islamic Endowments Department in Jerusalem told The New Arab's Arabic sister site Al-Araby Al-Jadeed.

Israeli forces imposed severe restrictions on Muslim worshippers entering Al-Aqsa and those under 60 were prevented from accessing the site.

It comes during the Jewish religious holiday of Sukkot, which started on 29 September and ends on Friday. The holiday has seen thousands of Israeli extremists storm the Al-Aqsa compound, with almost 1,500 entering the site on Monday.”

Don’t we already have an Israel / Palestine thread somewhere? Perhaps this discussion should be moved there?

[johnny]

As usual Ralph there’s little surprise to those who know anything about recent events there.

This from October the 5th: https://www.newarab.com/news/over-800-i ... und-sukkot

“More than 800 Israeli settlers stormed the Al-Aqsa Mosque compound in occupied East Jerusalem on Thursday morning under the protection of Israeli forces.

Well if the Israeli's were storming into a mosque in Gaza that might be provocation for the local Hamas authorities to run around murdering all the Jewish they could find in Gaza. But Jewish authorities and settlers doing whatever they are allowed to do within the capital of Israel is just the excuse dejure. Wars have consequences, and who gets Jerusalem was settled in 1967.

[Default0ptions]

As usual Ralph there’s little surprise to those who know anything about recent events there.

This from October the 5th: https://www.newarab.com/news/over-800-i ... und-sukkot

“More than 800 Israeli settlers stormed the Al-Aqsa Mosque compound in occupied East Jerusalem on Thursday morning under the protection of Israeli forces.

Well if the Israeli's were storming into a mosque in Gaza that might be provocation for the local Hamas authorities to run around murdering all the Jewish they could find in Gaza. But Jewish authorities and settlers doing whatever they are allowed to do within the capital of Israel is just the excuse dejure. Wars have consequences, and who gets Jerusalem was settled in 1967.

My point was merely that this didn’t come out of the blue, and there’s a lot more back story to this. It’s only a surprise to those who rely completely on ‘the news’ or the propaganda of their choice and then comment without the slightest effort to even begin to inform themselves.

[UndercoverElephant]

who gets Jerusalem was settled in 1967.

Oh, that hasn't been settled at all.

[clv101]

This is unprecedented on several levels and is likely to have significant, widespread geopolitical implications. Iran is likely key, they are very close (if not there already) with an atomic bomb. I think it's perfectly possible that Israel will expand its 'state of war' to include Iran in the coming days. The justification being they facilitated the Hamas attack and the objective destroying their nuclear industry - as Iraq and Syria can testify. But such an attack would be a massive undertaking for Israel to consider alone. This is 9/11 significance for Israel - the hostages even making in worse some ways.

Bad news for Ukraine though, they just slid down the US' and others priority list.

What becomes of the 2 million+ people, ~half children, who live in Gaza? Israel's response is sure to be massive - but there's a limit surely? How many kids can they kill before the West's support wavers?

[adam2]

The world moves a little closer to nuclear war.
Israel has the Bomb. Hamas do not, but allies such as iran might supply them with one.
Russia might also support Hamas, I cant see any direct gain for russia in so doing, but it would promote instability, discomfort the West in general and America in particular, and give the potential to expand the russian empire in the interests of peace of course.

I do not consider nuclear war to be likely, but the risks are growing. Time to get digging.

[adam2]

The death toll in Israel is now stated to be about 700.
And yes I agree that a dramatic response is likely. I doubt that Israel will deliberately target civilians, but expect many deaths in Gaza.
The more hot-headed Israelis are calling for the wholesale destruction of mosques, preferably with the congregation inside them.
Others are calling for a change of government after the present lot failed to prevent this series of attacks.

Yet others are calling for a general issue of guns to Israeli citizens to deter further attacks.

[Ralphw2]

One reason suggested for the attack was to derail negotiations towards Saudi Arabia recognising the state of Israel.

[clv101]

I doubt that Israel will deliberately target civilians, but expect many deaths in Gaza.

That's one of Israel's key talking points, but if course it's nonsense. I doubt there's a single 100m2 gridbox in the city without lots of civilians. It's simple daft for them to say they aren't deliberately targeting civilians while dropping 1000s tones of high explosives into the city.

[UndercoverElephant]

What becomes of the 2 million+ people, ~half children, who live in Gaza? Israel's response is sure to be massive - but there's a limit surely? How many kids can they kill before the West's support wavers?

That is exactly why they have done it. Hamas had no choice. The Palestinians cannot accept their current situation as a permanently occupied not-state. So they must keep fighting until Israel is forced to the resolve the long-term situation. And there's only two ways to do that. One of them is the two-state solution, the other is total genocide. The calculation is that the latter option will draw the whole world into a war.

If I was leading Hamas, I'd be doing the same thing.

[UndercoverElephant]

OK...so Israel has announced a complete blockade on Gaza. No food, water or medicines for 2 million people. That is straightforward genocide, and it will surely lead to wider conflict between the west and the Islamic world.

[Vortex2]

The Palestinians cannot accept their current situation as a permanently occupied not-state.

.. but they are NOT under occupation.

[UndercoverElephant]

The Palestinians cannot accept their current situation as a permanently occupied not-state.

.. but they are NOT under occupation.

They are not a state, either.

[Vortex2]

Gaza COULD been a decent area by now.

However despite receiving around $1.5 billion every year for decades there had been little to show for that money.

For example, the infrastructure there has not improved materially over the years.

Suspicions of mismanagement and theft concerning donations have swirled around for many, many years.