Ukraine Watch...

[Catweazle]

Some of these disagreement come down to semantics. When I refer to "NATO boots on the ground", I'm not referring to a dozen special forces - I'm referring to the deployment of several divisions, 30-60k personnel.

Try starting replies to DO like this ;

int bootsonground = 60000;

[Default0ptions]

Some of these disagreement come down to semantics. When I refer to "NATO boots on the ground", I'm not referring to a dozen special forces - I'm referring to the deployment of several divisions, 30-60k personnel.

I get that Clv and I think that your analysis of this situation is not entirely unadjasent to mine.

You make good sense

[Catweazle]

Some of these disagreement come down to semantics. When I refer to "NATO boots on the ground", I'm not referring to a dozen special forces - I'm referring to the deployment of several divisions, 30-60k personnel.

I get that Clv and I think that your analysis of this situation is not entirely unadjasent to mine.

You make good sense

Are you saying that you understood that CLVs "boots on ground" referred to a significant number of troops, but when I quoted it and stated that it would trigger a Russian response you had forgotten, and thus launched into a rant about special forces ?

You really are disingenuous.

[Default0ptions]

Some of these disagreement come down to semantics. When I refer to "NATO boots on the ground", I'm not referring to a dozen special forces - I'm referring to the deployment of several divisions, 30-60k personnel.

I get that Clv and I think that your analysis of this situation is not entirely unadjacent to mine.

You make good sense

Are you saying that you understood that CLVs "boots on ground" referred to a significant number of troops, but when I quoted it and stated that it would trigger a Russian response you had forgotten, and thus launched into a rant about special forces ?

You really are disingenuous.

I’m leaving off posting on this topic Catweazle because we are never going to agree and I don’t see that just arguing from opposite corners is useful to any of us

Particularly as I’ve followed this forum for years and regard the main posters here, including you, as holding useful opinions.

We’re just never going to agree on this issue and I see no benefit in simply getting more and more rude to each other

Time will pass, events will play out as they do; maybe then there might be some discussion to have.

Right now though I think I’m just annoying you and I don’t think that’s constructive.

I was interested in the debate but I think our different opinions on this will only end up with bad tempers - and that’s the way that debates go down the drain and into unnecessary animosity.

This is in no way capitulation to you Catweazle, just a recognition of the fact that our differences here are irreconcilable and unhelpful for others reading the forum.

[Catweazle]

Your input to the thread is more interesting than mine, you stay, I'll butt out of it.

[Default0ptions]

Your input to the thread is more interesting than mine, you stay, I'll butt out of it.

No need for that Catweazle. I respect and truly value your opinions and contributions to this forum. I just don’t think my views on the Ukraine situation are of any value here and I really don’t wish to contribute to a wreckage of this forum as a place for people to come, read, contribute etc

Just because you and I disagree on Ukraine in no way changes my high opinion of you and all your thoughts

[Default0ptions]

How can there ever be NATO 'boots on the ground' in Ukraine ?

That would be a serious escalation that Russia definitely would respond to.

There already are Nato boots on the ground in Ukraine. The world should be deeply grateful for the Russians’ forebearance on this issue

“Ukraine war: Leak shows Western special forces on the ground“

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65245065

This is a prime example of why I wonder where on earth you’re getting your ‘facts’ from about this whole situation

That’s just a truly staggering level of ignorance you’ve displayed there. It was even reported by the BBC so you’ve really got no excuse at all for being unaware of it

Sorry to rehash this but how many boots do you think Russia will tolerate? They are Nato boots. On the ground.Is the red line maybe 40? Or 27? Does it make a difference if they are top level advisors helping to orchestrate the war? Is it ok to sneak a few hundred more in because they are just army cooks or lavatory attendants.

Sorry, I just blew my no more posting post but arguments like these over the number of boots or who is wearing them are yet another sign of the west’s conviction that they can push this stuff to the limit

But the actual limit is how much Russia will go on tolerating this. Toleration is not weakness, it’s compassion.

And eventually the west will push too far and we all get nukes for breakfast.

[Catweazle]

In which case how about we return to this thread in a year and discuss how things are playing out. I might have to bring some humble pie, or maybe some Iodine, we'll see.

[Default0ptions]

In which case how about we return to this thread in a year and discuss how things are playing out. I might have to bring some humble pie, or maybe some Iodine, we'll see.

Whatever happens in a year I’d really enjoy it if you came to visit me for a good meal.

I’m sure we’d have a great discussion and then take the dogs out for a good blow.

We’d probably need supper after that, but I do have plenty of room to put you up

Probably a good example to some of our younger internet ideologues who fail to realise that you can actually be friends with people you disagree with

[clv101]

Sorry to rehash this but how many boots do you think Russia will tolerate? They are Nato boots. On the ground.Is the red line maybe 40? Or 27? Does it make a difference if they are top level advisors helping to orchestrate the war? Is it ok to sneak a few hundred more in because they are just army cooks or lavatory attendants.

Sorry, I just blew my no more posting post but arguments like these over the number of boots or who is wearing them are yet another sign of the west’s conviction that they can push this stuff to the limit

But the actual limit is how much Russia will go on tolerating this. Toleration is not weakness, it’s compassion.

And eventually the west will push too far and we all get nukes for breakfast.

One of the things that has surprised me about this conflict is how much the west - especially the UK - as put into the fight without receiving any retaliation of note.

Nukes are the end point of a wide spectrum, but I am surprised Russia don't seem to have effectively disrupted the logistics *into* Ukraine. UK under sea data and energy infrastructure would also seem to be legitimate targets, I would not have been surprised if Russia had taken out some of our critical data cables and pipelines in the weeks following Nord Stream. And why no effective cyber attacks on UK infrastructure? Are GCHQ really that good and Russia (+hackers for hire) really that bad? Russia has form when it comes to polonium and nerve agents - but nothing? Have they attempted and been thwarted or simply not trying? We hear about the dirty (nuclear) bomb risk, but more subtle, more insidious attacks are possible - radioactive contamination of a city's reservoir?

I just find it surprising that UK supplied weapons, training, intelligence, sanctions etc - which have directly cost Russia many thousands of lives, many hundreds units of heavy equipment and billions of dollars, have elicited little more that 'stern warnings' from Moscow? How come?

I don't believe for one moment that Russia is being 'compassionate' towards the UK. More likely they are deeply afraid, as they were in 1983.

[Default0ptions]

I can’t really engage with this until events on the ground play out because people regard me as Russian troll or simply and more rudely simply diss me for daring to have a view that differs from their precious propaganda.

I mean this kind of thing. Total rubbish and toadying unquestionably to the party line:

“One of the things that has surprised me about this conflict is how much the west - especially the UK - as put into the fight without receiving any retaliation of note.

Nukes are the end point of a wide spectrum, but I am surprised Russia don't seem to have effectively disrupted the logistics *into* Ukraine. UK under sea data and energy infrastructure would also seem to be legitimate targets, I would not have been surprised if Russia had taken out some of our critical data cables and pipelines in the weeks following Nord Stream. And why no effective cyber attacks on UK infrastructure? Are GCHQ really that good and Russia (+hackers for hire) really that bad? Russia has form when it comes to polonium and nerve agents - but nothing? Have they attempted and been thwarted or simply not trying?” W

[Default0ptions]

I forgot who I was aiming this paragraph at, but you know who you are

This is just arrant nonsense and only vaguely plausible as a fiction to work on those whose level of literacy barely allows them to read the Sun.

Separate post to answer Clv:

Yeah Clv. We in the Uk are an absolute party to the war (prepare your teddy bears to be wept on again) and fully deserve to be nuked for our part in this war.

Once again you can thank Russian forbearance for not taking that step. Yet.

[Default0ptions]

“Russia has form when it comes to polonium and nerve agents - but nothing? Have they attempted and been thwarted or simply not trying?”

Oh for goodness sake leave the Skripal farce out of this. It’s worth remembering that our police carefully guarded a hamster in the house and let it die horribly from starvation and dehydration.

Not a single plod at the scene fed it or watered it.

Just out of interest: how many of you believed the official narrative on that?

But it was so dangerous they had to remove park benches carefully secured with plastic wrapping it.

Remember the cat they also allowed to die of thirst and hunger and then shipped off to the lab for an autopsy?

[Default0ptions]

I’ll shut up now sorry

[Default0ptions]

I can’t really engage with this until events on the ground play out because people regard me as Russian troll or simply and more rudely simply diss me for daring to have a view that differs from their precious propaganda.

I mean this kind of thing. Total rubbish and toadying unquestionably to the party line:

“One of the things that has surprised me about this conflict is how much the west - especially the UK - as put into the fight without receiving any retaliation of note.

Nukes are the end point of a wide spectrum, but I am surprised Russia don't seem to have effectively disrupted the logistics *into* Ukraine. UK under sea data and energy infrastructure would also seem to be legitimate targets, I would not have been surprised if Russia had taken out some of our critical data cables and pipelines in the weeks following Nord Stream. And why no effective cyber attacks on UK infrastructure? Are GCHQ really that good and Russia (+hackers for hire) really that bad? Russia has form when it comes to polonium and nerve agents - but nothing? Have they attempted and been thwarted or simply not trying?” W