Ukraine Watch...

[kenneal - lagger]

Nice to see that you didn't answer any of the points I made in my last post, DO and just dismissed my carefully considered post as a rant.

If the Russians are doing so well why are they going backwards and why is Putin looking for ways to recruit even more Russian men for his meat grinder? And why are Russians having to shift troops from one place to another to plug holes made by Ukrainians? Why are Russian air defence systems blowing up along with Russian ships and submarines? And how come Ukraine is managing to blow up Russian aircraft and a number of arms factories almost anywhere they choose in Western Russia?

You had better contact your fellow Russian trolls for a few answers because from the sound of your rants that's where you get your information from.

[Default0ptions]

“If the Russians are doing so well why are they going backwards”

Are they going backwards? I’ve no idea where you get your information from but it seems to have very little to do with reality.

Again:

The west is about to abandon Ukraine,
Ukraine will then collapse,
Russia will have achieved its objectives.

All you have to do is wait and see and then, perhaps, feel a bit foolish.

[Default0ptions]

“Nice to see that you didn't answer any of the points I made in my last post, DO and just dismissed my carefully considered post as a rant”

Well all you did was rehash western propaganda. That was all you carefully considered. And as such your entire post was complete nonsense. You made no case to answer.

“Nearly 90 Percent of the World Isn't Following Us on Ukraine”

https://www.newsweek.com/nearly-90-perc ... on-1743061

[mr brightside]

Turkiye will take over southern Russia
That's a good thing. Cheap holidays.

Ye Gods! I'd rather go to Blackpool

[clv101]

“ I never said it was 'good', I used it as an example of what full support might look like. You were *wrong* to suggest Ukraine has received the full support of NATO.”

So the full support of NATO in your understanding of this situation is that the world nukes itself into death.

You might consider here what the full support of NATO means. It means very little unless you want full on nuclear war.

A year ago I would have agreed with you, but not today. If a US F35, flying out of Türkiye destroyed a Russian artillery piece in Zaporizhzhia Oblast I'm not convinced Russia would escalate - would not resort to nukes.

In the same way they haven't responded to British cruise missiles destroying bridges and significant naval assets. When the hardware, training and intelligence comes from the UK, as is the case with Storm Shadow, it makes no difference at all whether a Ukrainian or British soldier pushes the button.

I now think Russia accepts that their assets on contested Ukrainian territory are 'fair game'.

[Default0ptions]

“ I now think Russia accepts that their assets on contested Ukrainian territory are 'fair game'.”

Of course! It would be ridiculous to think otherwise!

By the same token NATO assets on contested territory are fair game too - including bases and maintenance facilities for the F 16s that it now looks extremely doubtful will ever be deployed.

That includes bases and maintenance facilities in other countries from which the F 16s would operate from.

But we can forget about that because our cozy friendly aid to Ukraine is littering the ground with nice friendly cluster bombs and depleted uranium munitions fired by Ukraine into the very territories they wish to welcome back into their fold.

You really couldn’t make this stuff up!

[Default0ptions]

“it makes no difference at all whether a Ukrainian or British soldier pushes the button.“

Except Russia has clearly stated that your putative British soldier pushing the button will result in all out nuclear retaliation

Just because you’ve forgotten the Cold War mutually assured destruction doesn’t mean it couldn’t ever happen now.

It hasn’t gone away you know. Even if you’ve convinced yourself that it’s survivable and you’ll be just fine

[clv101]

Just because you’ve forgotten the Cold War mutually assured destruction doesn’t mean it couldn’t ever happen now.

It hasn’t gone away you know. Even if you’ve convinced yourself that it’s survivable and you’ll be just fine

Sorry, you're singing to choir here - I haven't forgotten about the cold war. Over the last 5 years I've read over a dozen books on the Cold War, nuclear policy & technology and post WW2 geopolitics - I consider nuclear war before 2040 as at least a 50/50 chance and the specific risk today as high as at any point during the Cold War. What's changed is the media and public discussion, not the fundamentals.

[mr brightside]

Over the last 5 years I've read over a dozen books on the Cold War, nuclear policy & technology and post WW2 geopolitics...

Do you think that the US and Russia/China will consider the mass destruction of everyone else to be acceptable collateral damage; in an 'end justifies the means' kind of way? "Sorry about the nuclear winter, world, we had to do it because of the heinous crimes committed by those buggers over there".

[Default0ptions]

Just because you’ve forgotten the Cold War mutually assured destruction doesn’t mean it couldn’t ever happen now.

It hasn’t gone away you know. Even if you’ve convinced yourself that it’s survivable and you’ll be just fine

Sorry, you're singing to choir here - I haven't forgotten about the cold war. Over the last 5 years I've read over a dozen books on the Cold War, nuclear policy & technology and post WW2 geopolitics - I consider nuclear war before 2040 as at least a 50/50 chance and the specific risk today as high as at any point during the Cold War. What's changed is the media and public discussion, not the fundamentals.

Clv, as usual you are pretty much spot on with this. I only wish the rest of the choir could wake up to reality

[Default0ptions]

How can there ever be NATO 'boots on the ground' in Ukraine ?

That would be a serious escalation that Russia definitely would respond to.

There already are Nato boots on the ground in Ukraine. The world should be deeply grateful for the Russians’ forebearance on this issue

“Ukraine war: Leak shows Western special forces on the ground“

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65245065

This is a prime example of why I wonder where on earth you’re getting your ‘facts’ from about this whole situation

That’s just a truly staggering level of ignorance you’ve displayed there. It was even reported by the BBC so you’ve really got no excuse at all for being unaware of it

[Default0ptions]

Do you get some kind of pleasure from the thousands of deaths that US bombing caused? Are you proud of that?

Proud? What are you on about? I've made the point several times in this discussion that US led military action has killed far more people in recent decades than Russian attacks. Russia may appear brutal in their indiscriminate artillery etc - but US 'precision' bombing led to more deaths in Iraq, before we also consider Afghanistan and Libya. In contrast Russia military action in Georgia, Chechnya and Syria pales.

Clv, again I’m sorry to have misquoted you. I agree entirely with this post of yours

[Default0ptions]

Over the last 5 years I've read over a dozen books on the Cold War, nuclear policy & technology and post WW2 geopolitics...

Do you think that the US and Russia/China will consider the mass destruction of everyone else to be acceptable collateral damage; in an 'end justifies the means' kind of way? "Sorry about the nuclear winter, world, we had to do it because of the heinous crimes committed by those buggers over there".

Well there’s no point in having nukes if you’re not going to use them if you think that push has come to shove. That’s what mutually assured destruction means

Otherwise we’d all have given them up when CND asked us to

You really can’t be that naive

Once the first nuke is fired, or even just suspected to have been fired, that’s it. Game over. Everyone loses. There are no winners in an all out nuclear exchange.

There’s almost no one left to say "Sorry about the nuclear winter, world, we had to do it because of the heinous crimes committed by those buggers over there" and no one left to say it to

[Default0ptions]

Nice to see that you didn't answer any of the points I made in my last post, DO and just dismissed my carefully considered post as a rant.

You had better contact your fellow Russian trolls for a few answers because from the sound of your rants that's where you get your information from.

Well it was a rant and apparently devoid of any independent reporting from the ground.

Where do I get my information from? Well I usually try to give links to the BBC and other mainstream news sources precisely so I can dismiss your claims of questionable sources.

I particularly enjoyed taking Catweazle to task for demonstrating total ignorance of the subject under discussion by linking an article from the BBC clearly saying that there ARE Nato boots on the ground.

I’ll quote the whole exchange to try to make it easier for you to understand:-

“Catweazle wrote: ↑
How can there ever be NATO 'boots on the ground' in Ukraine ?

That would be a serious escalation that Russia definitely would respond to.”

I replied that

There already are Nato boots on the ground in Ukraine. The world should be deeply grateful for the Russians’ forebearance on this issue

“Ukraine war: Leak shows Western special forces on the ground“

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65245065

This is a prime example of why I wonder where on earth you’re getting your ‘facts’ from about this whole situation

That’s just a truly staggering level of ignorance you’ve displayed there. It was even reported by the BBC so you’ve really got no excuse at all for being unaware of it

[clv101]

Some of these disagreement come down to semantics. When I refer to "NATO boots on the ground", I'm not referring to a dozen special forces - I'm referring to the deployment of several divisions, 30-60k personnel.