Ukraine Watch...

[Default0ptions]

In the last couple of days this thread has been dominated by two posters congratulating each other on their anti western interpretations of every possible outcome and news item. This is a tactic I have seen on other web sites in an attempt to shut down discussions, where 5 or 10 rambling posts by the same person are posted sequentially.

Well you can either refute them point by point or just cry about people opposing your position without even attempting to refute them.

I realise that it can be disconcerting for your echo chamber to be infiltrated; but you can cry into your teddy bear if rational debate is too much for you

“ This is a tactic I have seen on other web sites in an attempt to shut down discussions,”

Who’s forcing you you to shut down discussions?

Jump right in with your your opinions! No one is stopping you!

Especially as you are a regular contributor to this forum that I have a good deal of respect for whether or not I immediately agree with you. I have in fact changed my mind on some things that you have argued persuasively for over the years.

[Catweazle]

Another thing that irks me continually about those who blather on about “Russia’s Full Scale Invasion of Ukraine” is the complete lack of US style ‘shock and awe’ obliteration of Kiev and other major decision making centres.

Do you think Russia couldn’t obliterate Kiev?

Are you really saying Russia is failing because it’s chosen not to obliterate Kiev?

Do you lust for a complete Dresden horror on all major Ukrainian cities?

Wasn't there a huge Russian convoy heading for Kyiv with the potential to flatten it ? I seem to remember the convoy was stopped dead by a large shipment of Javelin missiles.

[Default0ptions]

Rather think it was a stunningly successful feint which almost got a peace negotiation underway. Remember that the Ukrainian negotiator got assassinated and our Beautiful Boris was sent to tell them NO PEACE NEGOTIATIONS

Unfortunately for the very few commentators who were waxing lyrical about air superiority - the entire column remained intact.

It was a fourty mile sitting duck and it wasn’t even marginally hassled by Ukrainian attack

The Russians must have practically wet themselves laughing about it then - and even more about you continuing to fall for it - because it was entirely made up of obsolete weaponry well past its use date

This whole thing will go down in history as the complete idiocy of the west confusing its beautifully constructed propaganda vs the actual facts on the ground

[Catweazle]

Rather think it was a stunningly successful feint which almost got a peace negotiation underway. Remember that the Ukrainian negotiator got assassinated and our Beautiful Boris was sent to tell them NO PEACE NEGOTIATIONS

Unfortunately for the very few commentators who were waxing lyrical about air superiority - the entire column remained intact.

It was a fourty mile sitting duck and it wasn’t even marginally hassled by Ukrainian attack

The Russians must have practically wet themselves laughing about it then - and even more about you continuing to fall for it - because it was entirely made up of obsolete weaponry well past its use date

This whole thing will go down in history as the complete idiocy of the west confusing its beautifully constructed propaganda vs the actual facts on the ground

Thankyou for making me laugh out loud on a dreary Monday.

[Default0ptions]

Happy to help :)

Time will inevitably show that I’m right about this whole fiasco though.

The next upcoming events are that us/Uk/nato pull out and abandon a now wrecked Ukraine in yet another of their last minute helicopter panic retreats

It’s not very far in the future.

Then revisit your posts on the issue and pretend you didn’t just ridicule me

“Wasn't there a huge Russian convoy heading for Kyiv with the potential to flatten it ?”

Err umm no convoy needed to obliterate Kiev. Or did you forget hypersonic missiles that the US admit they cannot yet match or defend against?

U.S. defense officials have concluded that existing radar architectures are insufficient to detect and track hypersonic weapons.[17][18]

In March of 2022, American President Joe Biden confirmed that Russia used hypersonic missiles in Ukraine. "It's almost impossible to stop it," he said: "There's a reason they're using it."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kh-47M2_Kinzhal

So - the convoy couldn’t have been a serious attempt to destroy Kiev. Because they could wipe out Kiev whenever they chose

The fact that they haven’t is pertinent here Catweazle

Kiev is largely intact because Russia chose not to obliterate it as the US has done to every country they’ve picked on.

And then usually taking their gold reserves ‘for safekeeping’ or simply occupying oil producing regions and blatantly stealing their oil.

Go google us oil theft in Syria

[Ralphw2]

I have commented several times on this thread about the relative lack of air power on both sides of this war. In the Ukrainian side this is partly down to them having only a small air force, but the larger reason on both sides is the success of cheap manpads on both sides taking out aircraft costing tens of millions with high regularity. The original invasion in no small part was beheaded by the massive loss of Russian helicopters that attempted to capture the main airfields around Kiev.

Both sides have learned to keep their distance from the front lines since then, and Ukraine has still managed to take out some Russian heavy bombers whilst they were sitting on the ground hundreds of miles behind them.

I the early days Russia did not target infrastructure because they excepted to roll in and capture it largely undamaged. When they lost the initial conflict, they decided to bomb the power network as the easiest way to freeze the people into submission, but by then Ukraine had been given enough air defences to see them through the winter (just). Since then Russia has not had enough missiles left, nor fast enough production, for mass bombing, and is now relying on cheap Iranian drones to help bomb the grain export infrastructure by overwhelming the air defences with too many targets.

Ukraine is now using the same tactics to sink warships in Crimea.

[Ralphw2]

We are all well aware that the first casualty of war is truth. The second casualty, when one side is an Orwellian dystopia, is history, as evidenced by your extended and systematic attempt to rewrite it here on this thread.

[kenneal - lagger]

..........................
I hope you’re happy that we’ve contributed to the murder of husbands, sons and fathers of whatever nationality and it distresses me that you seem to be eagerly looking forward to more.

Now if that statement isn't pro Russian trolling, I don't know what is.

There would have been no murdering of anyone if Putin hadn't ordered the invasion of Ukraine to preserve and extend his criminal empire. The only way to ensure a cessasion of murdering is for Russia to withdraw behind its own borders and stop sending missiles and shells into Ukraine. Russia started the war and the murdering and only Russia can finish it.The Ukrainians are fighting because they have been part of a Russian led criminal empire before and the Eastern Europeans are supporting Ukraine and Ukrainians because they too have suffered over many generations.

Those people know that you can't negotiate with a criminal psychopath who has already broken treaty obligations to protect the borders of the country that he invaded. Agreements with Hitler went nowhere and neither will any with Putin.

[Catweazle]

I haven't forgotten about hypersonic missiles, those small, expensive, low yield weapons so useful for taking out ships or HQ buildings. Not so useful against cities though.

[Default0ptions]

“ There would have been no murdering of anyone if Putin hadn't ordered the invasion of Ukraine”

This is the crux of our disagreement. As I have read and followed the events leading up to that invasion I see that Putin had exhausted every attempt at avoiding the situation and was left with no other choice than to invade to protect and defend the donbass after years of Ukrainian shelling of the civilians they wanted to count as their own Ukrainian countrymen.

We’re going to disagree about this as the casus belli but I bear neither you or any of my other detractors any ill will.

It’s just a shame you’ve become so blinded by western propaganda that you’re unable to exercise any original thought at all on the whole tragic issue

[Default0ptions]

I haven't forgotten about hypersonic missiles, those small, expensive, low yield weapons so useful for taking out ships or HQ buildings. Not so useful against cities though.

Are you saying that Russia should be taking out whole cities
Instead of precision targets?

Is that what you want?

“damage to civilian areas has resulted from falling debris from intercepted missiles. Although much less destructive than allowing a missile to strike its target, debris from intercepts can still kill, maim, start fires, and etc”

That does of course mean that they think the intended target was a massacre of civilians rather than a precision strike on infrastructure.

And by the way a couple of seconds on google will show you that kinzhals can carry nukes

Which Ukrainian cities do you want to get nuked?

And just how will that solve anything about this situation?

[Default0ptions]

Ralph: “Russia has not had enough missiles left, nor fast enough production, for mass bombing”

https://www.csis.org/analysis/russia-is ... t-missiles

[Vortex2]

Bard says:

The shelling of Donetsk by Ukraine for eight years was one of the reasons for the war, but it is important to note that it was not the only reason. The war in Ukraine is a complex issue with a long history, and there are many factors that contributed to it.

Some of the other factors that contributed to the war include:

• The collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, which led to the creation of independent states in Eastern Europe and Central Asia. This process was not without its challenges, and there were many conflicts between the newly independent states.

• The expansion of NATO eastward, which Russia sees as a threat to its security.

• The rise of nationalism in Ukraine in recent years, which has led to tensions with Russia.

• The Ukrainian Revolution of Dignity in 2014, which overthrew the pro-Russian government of Viktor Yanukovych.

• The annexation of Crimea by Russia in 2014.

• The outbreak of the war in eastern Ukraine in 2014.

It is important to note that there are many different perspectives on the war in Ukraine, and there is no single "correct" answer to the question of what caused it. However, it is clear that the shelling of Donetsk by Ukraine for eight years was one of the factors that contributed to the war.

It is also important to note that the war in Ukraine is a tragedy, and that it has caused immense suffering for the Ukrainian people. The war has also had a significant impact on the global economy, and it has raised concerns about the outbreak of a wider conflict.

[Vortex2]

Ralph: “Russia has not had enough missiles left, nor fast enough production, for mass bombing”

https://www.csis.org/analysis/russia-is ... t-missiles

The 100% success rate of the Patriots as mentioned in the report is somewhat suspect.

It's performance in its early years was definitely mediocre.

It has been upgraded over the last 20 or so years ... but even so, Saudi has not had perfect success with the Patriot in the Yemen Civil War

[Default0ptions]

Ralph: “Russia has not had enough missiles left, nor fast enough production, for mass bombing”

https://www.csis.org/analysis/russia-is ... t-missiles

The 100% success rate of the Patriots as mentioned in the report is somewhat suspect.

It's performance in its early years was definitely mediocre.

It has been upgraded over the last 20 or so years ... but even so, Saudi has not had perfect success with the Patriot in the Yemen Civil War

Yeah I agree. I just used that article to refute the “Russia running out” argument by quoting a refutation from a pro western source to save the detractors the trouble of hand waving about not believing a pro Russian paper