Conservative party/opposition watch

[Stumuz2]

According to the FT (not The Guardian), Liz Truss and Kwasi Kwarteng cost the country £45billion....
https://www.ft.com/content/736a695d-61f ... 92ed2a3dca

Or was it the bond vigilantes that went on strike that cost 45B

But that's all good for Stumuz2, because in his world tax cuts are always good and giving any money to the taxman is theft - really ?

Really. Taking money by threats is never good.

Submitting fraudulent tax returns is also OK - he thinks it's HMRC's responsibility to find the flaws....

There you go again. Fraud is a crime. Where is the charge. The tax authorities disagreed with him and issued a penalty. HMRC issue thousands of charges which appear before the criminal courts each year.
Where;s the charge.

And that Nadhim Zahawi came home after a hard day as an MP, had his tea, and then started building/plastering/plumbing until midnight.....

That was me working till midnight. But you get the gist. He took risks and they paid off.

For me, swindling tax and/or paying smart lawyers and accountants to hide large sums of wealth are more immoral actions than fiddling a few quid of benefit if you're in a totally desperate situation..

So just to be clear, I don't think that a life on benefits is a good one, or should be encouraged.
Benefits are there to protect and defend the weak and vulnerable in society, and shouldn't be abused either...

Quite. It's a horrible life on benefits.

And yes, good luck to Lidl selling beans @ 38p, but I don't want them running the NHS, Social Care, Roads, Defence, Education, Public Transport etc..... or the utility services for that matter..... these are public assets and should be run for public benefit....., not private shareholder profits, which often end up going out of the country...

They would make a better job of it. The NHS is 2nd largest employer next to the Chinese red army. Not working too well is it?

[Stumuz2]

Last time you tried to bullshit your way through an argument with me, you lost it. Seems you didn't learn much.

Nope. You quickly turned to abuse and it was deleted.

Try again inheritance boy.

[Stumuz2]

Any financial observer knew it was an establishment hit job.

Surely you meant to say "due to the actions of honest businessmen making money and minimising their tax liabilities....."

No. The bond market happily gave money for the worlds first 100 year bond to Argentina at NEGATIVE rates last year. Billions loaned to a country that has defaulted many times, will probably de facto default this year, has an inflation rate of 94.8%.

And you think this same bond market was concerned about the Truss mini budget?

Are you really that gullible?

[UndercoverElephant]

Any financial observer knew it was an establishment hit job.

Surely you meant to say "due to the actions of honest businessmen making money and minimising their tax liabilities....."

No. The bond market happily gave money for the worlds first 100 year bond to Argentina at NEGATIVE rates last year. Billions loaned to a country that has defaulted many times, will probably de facto default this year, has an inflation rate of 94.8%.

And you think this same bond market was concerned about the Truss mini budget?

Are you really that gullible?

I am not gullible enough to believe your bullshit, no. Of course the bond market was concerned about the Truss mini-budget. It involved massive unfunded tax cuts. Rishi Sunak clearly warned of exactly what happened. According to Truss, who you are defending, that makes Rishi Sunak part of the "left wing economic establishment". One of the richest people in the country, ex boss of a hedge fund, now tory Prime Minister, and you're defending the idea that he was part of a left wing establishment hit job. You're as deranged as she is.

[Catweazle]

Any financial observer knew it was an establishment hit job.

Surely you meant to say "due to the actions of honest businessmen making money and minimising their tax liabilities....."

No. The bond market happily gave money for the worlds first 100 year bond to Argentina at NEGATIVE rates last year. Billions loaned to a country that has defaulted many times, will probably de facto default this year, has an inflation rate of 94.8%.

And you think this same bond market was concerned about the Truss mini budget?

Are you really that gullible?

Help me out here, are you saying that those bastions of the free market deliberately sabotaged the system in order to steal, sorry - "Earn" - billions from the British taxpayer ? Obviously we can count on such upstanding people to pay all due tax on the profit.

[Mark]

Help me out here, are you saying that those bastions of the free market deliberately sabotaged the system in order to steal, sorry - "Earn" - billions from the British taxpayer ? Obviously we can count on such upstanding people to pay all due tax on the profit.

In his world, they'll only be arranging their taxes as to attract the least amount of tax demand....
We just need to chillax - nothing at all to see here....
Don't worry about nurses having to use Foodbanks...

[automaticearth2]

Here's the Express's view of the Truss situation (yeah I know):
https://www.express.co.uk/comment/expre ... -economics

I liked this bit:

While real business people like me welcomed Truss’s strategy, it was the markets which were supposedly ‘spooked’.

I don’t believe this for one second.

All her measures had been set out over the summer during the leadership hustings and were never going to be a surprise.

And not only were her consumer and business energy price support plans declared a fortnight before, virtually the entire political establishment seemed to back them. Currency markets tumbled because the day before her mini-budget the Bank of England had undercooked measures needed to stave off inflation.

The question is, why had the Bank been so much slower than the US Fed to raise rates over here.

[Stumuz2]

I am not gullible enough to believe your bullshit, no. Of course the bond market was concerned about the Truss mini-budget. It involved massive unfunded tax cuts. Rishi Sunak clearly warned of exactly what happened. According to Truss, who you are defending, that makes Rishi Sunak part of the "left wing economic establishment". One of the richest people in the country, ex boss of a hedge fund, now tory Prime Minister, and you're defending the idea that he was part of a left wing establishment hit job. You're as deranged as she is.

You are making a strawman. I am not defending Truss. I am a low tax, free trade, personal autonomy advocate. That is a mile away from defending Truss.
Truss was merely the nearest things to low tax, free trade etc.

Have you never questioned why Sunak ‘warned’ about the bond market and hey presto, the bond went on strike? Was France a better bet that day? Argentina? Italy?

Come on!

[Stumuz2]

Help me out here, are you saying that those bastions of the free market deliberately sabotaged the system in order to steal, sorry - "Earn" - billions from the British taxpayer ? Obviously we can count on such upstanding people to pay all due tax on the profit.

No. I am saying she was made an example of. The global elite of the top 1% like the way things are, thank you very much.

Truss was going to upset the apple cart. Have a think where all those mouse click trillions went too? When the currency is debased people who get first dibs on the new debased currency have the most purchasing power. It’s simple. What can you do with trillions in new currency….you loan it governments!!! In exchange for promises. Arrrggghhhhh this is so simple.

[Stumuz2]

In his world, they'll only be arranging their taxes as to attract the least amount of tax demand....
We just need to chillax - nothing at all to see here....
Don't worry about nurses having to use Foodbanks...

My friend was a practitioner nurse. Retired three years ago.
Lovely second home in Tenerife.

Don't think she goes to food banks.

And there is nothing wrong with arranging your taxes as to attract the least amount of tax demand....

So chillax all you like, just don't expect your next door neighbour to subsidise you.

[UndercoverElephant]

In his world, they'll only be arranging their taxes as to attract the least amount of tax demand....
We just need to chillax - nothing at all to see here....
Don't worry about nurses having to use Foodbanks...

My friend was a practitioner nurse. Retired three years ago.
Lovely second home in Tenerife.

Husband was a solicitor?

[Stumuz2]

Husband was a solicitor?

Speech therapist.

[UndercoverElephant]

Husband was a solicitor?

Speech therapist.

Well, your anecdotal "I know a nurse and she's doing fine" just sums up the level of detachment from reality you're experiencing. On a selfish/greedy scale of 1 to 10, you're a 12, and you know it. You don't give f*ck about nurses using food banks, so you pretend it isn't happening. They certainly don't deserve a pay rise if it means you have to get by with slightly less money that you don't actually need. After all it's YOURS, isn't it? Taxation is theft. You've already made your position clear - if you were in charge of the country, you would not only abolish the NHS but dismantle the state education system and the entire welfare state. All so you and other wealthy people can stuff even more money into your already-bulging pockets, so you can buy a couple more properties to rent out the the wage slaves. And yet you aren't without conscience. Somewhere deep down there's a part of you that actually feels guilt. Otherwise you wouldn't react so badly during these discussions. But it's only a small part, and it can't touch the money obsession.

[Stumuz2]

Well, your anecdotal "I know a nurse and she's doing fine" just sums up the level of detachment from reality you're experiencing. On a selfish/greedy scale of 1 to 10, you're a 12, and you know it.

Abuse. Nothing to do with the discussion. We know you are an abuser as you get deleted for it.

You don't give f*ck about nurses using food banks, so you pretend it isn't happening. They certainly don't deserve a pay rise if it means you have to get by with slightly less money that you don't actually need.

Gone off on a frolic of your own there. You completely made that up. Not relevant to the discussion just more abuse.

After all it's YOURS, isn't it? Taxation is theft. You've already made your position clear -

Taxation is demanding money with menaces, yes.

if you were in charge of the country, you would not only abolish the NHS but dismantle the state education system and the entire welfare state.

You have completely made that lie up. Pattern emerging?

All so you and other wealthy people

You are wealthy. you are the beneficiary of inheritance. Don't be a hypocrite. It's not a good look

And yet you aren't without conscience. Somewhere deep down there's a part of you that actually feels guilt.

Nope. IF i had inherited wealth I may feel a bit guilty because it perpetrates class inequality. But as i inherited nothing and have worked for everything myself, no. Not a twinge of guilt.

Otherwise you wouldn't react so badly during these discussions. But it's only a small part, and it can't touch the money obsession.

I don't react badly. I merely call out hypocrisy when it is gratuitously spotted. And i have a contrary viewpoint to socialist drivel. Empirically socialism has never worked.

[UndercoverElephant]

Taxation is demanding money with menaces, yes.

And you think that is wrong, yes? You think you shouldn't have to pay any taxes, right?

You have completely made that lie up. Pattern emerging?

We'll see about that. Do you agree that taxation is a morally acceptable way of raising funds to run a country? Do you also agree that some of those funds should be used to provide free education up to the age of 18, and fund a functioning NHS? If so, why are you describing this process as "demanding money with menaces"? Why can't you just accept that taxation is necessary and justified? If there weren't menaces, then you wouldn't pay it, would you?

You are wealthy. you are the beneficiary of inheritance. Don't be a hypocrite. It's not a good look

Oh dear. This is the same argument you already lost once. It seems we have to go through it again.

Why, exactly, do you think I am a hypocrite? Please explain the alleged hypocrisy. This is precisely the question you could not answer last time. I inherited some money, therefore I am a hypocrite for thinking taxation isn't theft? It doesn't make the slightest bit of sense. Please explain.

This might help: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

Tu quoque (/tjuːˈkwoʊkwi, tuːˈkwoʊkweɪ/;[1] Latin Tū quoque, for "you also") is a discussion technique that intends to discredit the opponent's argument by attacking the opponent's own personal behavior and actions as being inconsistent with their argument, therefore accusing hypocrisy. This specious reasoning is a special type of ad hominem attack. The Oxford English Dictionary cites John Cooke's 1614 stage play The Cittie Gallant as the earliest use of the term in the English language.[1] "Whataboutism" is one particularly well known modern instance of this technique.

("Whatabout your inheritance.")What about it?