Ukraine Watch...

[Stumuz2]

Vortex,
I've just returned from two weeks sailing around Marths's Vineyard, off Massachusetts.
Every time we went ashore, in affluent Edgarton or Oak Bluffs (where Jaws was filmed) the locals were complaining loudly about the price of diesel $6.12 a gallon.
The reason given for their anger was the same as the video you have posted. That it was a staged and supported coup by Nato/US/UK.

Okay, fair enough. But why are Ukrainians fighting to the death? Why are they giving up their lives in huge numbers if they were just manipulated? Are they a bit dim about why they are sacrificing everything?

I think there is a far bigger game afoot. China is/was expecting a quick victory by Russia. If Putin can be seen to fail, this then sends a huge message to China re' Taiwan.

[Vortex2]

Hi Stumuz,

Sailing? Yuk!
I have been sailing once, in my late teens, on a huge ketch for two weeks.
There were just 8 of us crewing, as the remaining 8 or so failed to show up.
We took part in an ocean race in almost hurricane conditions.
I spent 2 weeks working 4 hours on, and then 4 hours trying to sleep, tied to the massive mast.
(Below decks was flooded chest high, with a couple of inches of diesel oil floating on top)
At one point I was sitting on the massive bowsprit, repeatedly 6 foot under water, in a raging storm, attaching cleats to a steel cable .. at nightime, with a faulty safety harness.
Never, never, never again.

As for Ukraine.
Yes, the locals are fighting for the noble concept of Homeland.
A federated Ukraine would have solved this problem ... but external forces and human nature have got in the way.

[adam2]

Growing evidence of russian war crimes in Ukraine. Mass graves found with the remains of women and children.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62945155

[Default0ptions]

Not again Adam. The pictures show individual graves each with their own cross.

[Default0ptions]

Stumuz. Because they have no choice remember. All men have to fight. My daughter was working in the cafe on one of the bases that we were training them. Her husband is in the Scot’s guards. His prediction was that they’d mostly be dead in a week or two.

How is this a good thing?

[Default0ptions]

I’m waiting for Stumuz to stop sailing round Martha’s Vineyard and go and put his life on the line

[Stumuz2]

I’m waiting for Stumuz to stop sailing round Martha’s Vineyard and go and put his life on the line

You will wait a long time.

[Stumuz2]

Stumuz. Because they have no choice remember. All men have to fight. My daughter was working in the cafe on one of the bases that we were training them. Her husband is in the Scot’s guards. His prediction was that they’d mostly be dead in a week or two.

Same question to you.
Are these people stupid?
Deceived ?
They have been forced to come to the UK for training?
They could not desert and claim asylum?

[Default0ptions]

You’re being trite. These people are now largely dead. Sacrificed on the altar of a totally unnecessary fight. I don’t expect you have the guts that they did. But feel free to go and join up if you truly believe what you say.

Or is your blood more precious than your principles?

[Stumuz2]

You’re being trite. These people are now largely dead. Sacrificed on the altar of a totally unnecessary fight. I don’t expect you have the guts that they did. But feel free to go and join up if you truly believe what you say.

Or is your blood more precious than your principles?

Another one who has conversations with themselves.

My country has not been invaded. If Putin rolled his tanks into the UK. Yes I would fight.
As for what i truly believe, I truly believe Putin has invaded Ukraine and they are fighting back. I do not believe as you do that the whole thing is a clandestine conspiracy that only self proclaimed enlightened people can see.

Thanks for the intel from the cafe.

[Default0ptions]

Well maybe this whole Ukraine thing doesn’t really matter then Stumuz and UE if it’s a ‘hands off for me’ for both of you.

I just think that if you want the Ukrainians to die for this situation you should go and stand alongside them like Orwell did in Spain,

Or explain why it’s not really important enough for you

[Stumuz2]

Well maybe this whole Ukraine thing doesn’t really matter then Stumuz and UE if it’s a ‘hands off for me’ for both of you.

Don't have a clue what you are saying. Take a bit of time, consider your words, and construct a coherent question.

I just think that if you want the Ukrainians to die for this situation you should go and stand alongside them like Orwell did in Spain,

Again, you are having conversations with yourself. I do not want the Ukrainians to die. Their country has been invaded. They are standing up to an aggressor. Good luck to them. We should send them arms and supplies and wish them well.

Or explain why it’s not really important enough for you

Again, you have gone on a frolic of your own. Please explain what you mean .

[Default0ptions]

Yeah you may have a point and I’m not managing to state my position clearly.

At its most basic level I think that NATO has provoked this confrontation relentlessly ever since the 2014 Maidan thing

Whether or not you agree with that I think we the UK /EU have destroyed our economies with the sanctions

I don’t think we had to have deliberately confronted Russia over any of this and it would have benefited both parties to continue to trade amicably

And then no one would need to be dying

[Stumuz2]

Okay. Thanks for the reply.

Point 1, about NATO provoking the invasion.

Surely the Ukrainians are free to choose whatever future the wish. If both Russia and NATO are trying to love bomb the Ukrainians for their allegiance/natural resources then that is a good thing?
It seems they chose wisely when they chose the west over Russia, as Russia took a sulk and invaded.

Point 2.
As we all know on this forum, the economy is doomed anyway! On this forum we are just a couple of steps ahead of the crowd.

[kenneal - lagger]

Russia signed a treaty to guarantee the integrity of Ukraine and its borders in exchange for Ukraine giving up nuclear weapons. Russia is a member of the UN whose charter states that current borders of countries should be respected. Russia walked into Crimea unprovoked because it wanted it back. Russia engineered a revolt in the Donbas because it wanted the mineral resources of the area and it industry.

NATO has been training Ukrainian forces after Ukraine asked for help after these invasions. NATO provoked the further invasion by not being robust enough in its response to the first invasions just as Hitler was provoked into invading Poland by the inadequate response of the allies to his incursions into the Austria and Czechoslovakia.

When will you greyscale people realise that you have been taken in by a psychopath whose publicly stated aim is to reinstate the former Soviet Empire? All the bullsh*t that you state about what NATO may or may not have done is just Russian misinformation which you have lapped up because you dislike NATO and the US intensely and will therefore believe anything anyone says which puts them in a bad light.

This war and all the killing and damage and economic fallout is totally the fault of a deranged psychopath with Hitlerian or Stalinian dreams of empire who wants to be remembered in history as a great man similar to Peter the Great. And you deluded grey scalers are just supporting that deranged psychopath.

As to my gas bill, I have just put two 47kg propane bottles in, which were bought six months ago, to replace the ones I bought eighteen months ago and will last me about a year. I will worry about replacing the current bottles in a few months time. Meanwhile I have enough wood in to last about three years and can use that for cooking if the gas is still very expensive in a few months time. I haven't been a member of this forum for umpteen years for nothing!! As Stumuz said "the economy is doomed anyway! On this forum we are just a couple of steps ahead of the crowd."

This war and the pandemic are just two parts of the decline predicted in Limits To Growth and there will be more. There will also be more extreme weather events as climate change takes a hold which is why I am substantially increasing and weatherising (I hate Americanisms but ...) my rain water storage and will be increasing my PV provision. The end might not be nigh but great changes for the worse probably are!