Nuclear War

[clv101]

Now why didn’t Vlad start with ‘shock and awe’ on Kiev, and then Lviv, or systematically destroy most of the critical infrastructure over the whole country?

That is a good question. I can only assume they expected a swift regime change in days, with no significant opposition. They didn't want to break stuff and kill people if they were going to administrating the place the following week. Western attacks have started with shock and awe and the establishment of air superiority. Maybe Russia just didn't have the air force and cruise missiles to even attempt such an attack. Have the TU-95 or TU-160 heavy bombers been used at all?

Just came across this about Ukraine destroying the last of the Soviet strategic weapons: https://www.armscontrol.org/node/2963#: ... 20missiles.

[kenneal - lagger]

That is the standard model for a US/NATO intervention. But Putin didn’t do that, did he?

Do tell us where!! I'm all ears.

Baghdad, the former Yugoslavia, anywhere they chose in Syria, many more Iraqi cities, Libya, ongoing and continuous drone attacks killing more civilians than targets in Afghanistan and Pakistan . . .

What has all that got to do with Ukraine? But while you mention it, isn't the "they" in Syria Russia? Russia has been bombing the s**t out of every town in Syria that doesn't bow down to the hegemony of Assad as I remember it.

Now why didn’t Vlad start with ‘shock and awe’ on Kiev, and then Lviv, or systematically destroy most of the critical infrastructure over the whole country?

As Chris pointed out they hoped to profit from taking Ukraine over without too much damage but as Ukraine had the temerity to reject Putin's advances he has to punish them by bombing the s**t out of Ukraine as he did Syria concentrating on houses, blocks of flats, hospitals and schools.

And what is the US and UK doing? We are honouring our treaty obligations to respect and guarantee the borders of Ukraine in exchange for them relinquishing their nuclear weapons while Russia is reneging on their obligations.

The recent Kinzhal attack on Kryvyi Rih was apparently launched by Russian TU-95 or TU-160 heavy bombers from over the Caspian Sea. They can't get any closer because they have failed in 6 months to establish air superiority over Ukrainian territory and they would be easy to shoot down.

[Default0ptions]

You asked me where US/NATO had done shock and awe style warfare.

Which the Russians still haven’t done yet in Ukraine.

[kenneal - lagger]

I asked where the US/NATO had carried out "An instant and total decapitation of the government " which Putin tried on the first day of the war but his elite Spetsnaz troops were decimated by Ukrainian forces. There have also been reports of further Russian attempts to infiltrate assassins since.

As to Russian shock and awe they haven't attempted it because they can't because they have been unable to establish air superiority. The nearest they can get is to rocket individual rail terminals, shopping malls, apartment blocks, universities, schools and kindergartens. They have recently had a go at a few power stations as well but most power has been restored.

The US shock and awe was designed to stop the functioning of government and military infrastructure to disrupt control as part of a lightening strike into Iraq. Russia has been singularly unable to assemble anything like the coordination required because the rampant corruption in all levels of Russian society has hollowed out their military, its arms and its infrastructure.

[Default0ptions]

I’m at a loss as to how to deal with your level of misunderstanding of the wider situation and your evident emotional investment in the msm narrative.

We’re just going to have to disagree on this.

[kenneal - lagger]

As far as I can see a country which is run by a man who regularly bumps off the opposition, who, along with a coterie of fellow oligarchs, are robbing their country blind and which has made criticism of the government a criminal offence has invaded a neighbouring country to further his ambition to become another "Peter the Great" and leave Russia with a European Empire whether anyone else wants to join that empire of not. As his invasion is going wrong he and his coterie are making threats of nuclear attack of any supporters of the invaded country, Ukraine. That is unacceptable behaviour and there is no excuse whatever for it. To make excuses for Russia is equally wrong. It doesn't matter what any other country has done in the past. In the here and now what Russia is doing is wrong and should be resisted because if we don't resist now Putin will go further.

Yes, other countries have done wrong in the past but that is still no excuse for what Russia is doing now.

It would seem that you, DefaultOptions, have any equally emotional response to mine. The fact that I don't agree with your response doesn't mean that you a right any more than it means that I am right. So I am quite happy to disagree.

[Default0ptions]

Ken. There’s none so blind as those that refuse to see. If you read back on this forum you’ll see that even some longer term members than me are pointing out that this is nowhere near as black and white as you take it.

[adam2]

" President Biden warns putin against use of nuclear weapons" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62936643

[Default0ptions]

Oh wonderful. So Biden’s ready to nuke right back! That’s really going to fix things and my four year old grandson can grow up in peace

[Default0ptions]

Are you deliberately advocating mutual assured destruction as a solution to this?

Get a f***ing grip man.

This shit is real.

[Stumuz2]

Are you deliberately advocating mutual assured destruction as a solution to this?

Get a f***ing grip man.

This shit is real.

Yes.
The MAD doctrine has ensured that I am the only Male on the paternal side of the family that has not served in the military for at least 130 years.
Praise the lord nuclear weapons. I prefer sailing.

[PS_RalphW]

I do not think that battlefields nukes would give Russia sufficient advantage in this war to be worth the political fallout. They are best used against traditional concentrated heavy armour, their relatively small kill radius would not do enough damage to the dispersed, more mobile troops on the Ukrainian side. Using them would give the West the moral case to use them back, and the Russian front line would then quickly collapse. Putin would then have to go MAD or lose.

If Putin decides to go nuclear, it will be a big symbolic bomb against the capital to decapitate the Ukrainian leadership and terrify the country into submission. That risks MAD, and that equation has not changed.

[Default0ptions]

Battlefield/tactical nukes are pointless, apart from trying to whip up anti Russian feelings.

It does occur to me that most of the figureheads of the world are congregated in London for the queen’s funeral.

I don’t expect a nuclear strike though. It’s only ever the little men who have to bleed.

[kenneal - lagger]

Oh wonderful. So Biden’s ready to nuke right back! That’s really going to fix things and my four year old grandson can grow up in peace

So where did Biden threaten to use Nuclear weapons? The only people to have threatened to use nuclear weapons are your friends the Russians, DO, All Biden said was "Don't! Don't! Don't!"

[BritDownUnder]

Battlefield/tactical nukes are pointless, apart from trying to whip up anti Russian feelings.

It does occur to me that most of the figureheads of the world are congregated in London for the queen’s funeral.

I don’t expect a nuclear strike though. It’s only ever the little men who have to bleed.

I think there was a movie "London has fallen" with such an attack but it was a conventional attack.

I am sure Mr Putin is tempted though. The Russian capacity for wickedness is great.