Ukraine Watch...

[Stumuz2]

So, simple question.
Has Russia invaded Ukraine?

[Stumuz2]

Iraq was going to invade us? Afghanistan was too?

No they invaded Kuwait.


It really is quite simple.

[PS_RalphW]

They did in the first Iraq war. The second was Shrub's folly and millions of people myself included were very angry about it. The invasion of Afghanistan was a closer call. They were sheltering Al Qaida who had just given the USA a very bloody nose.

[Default0ptions]

>> The invasion is a proxy for invasion

???

[Default0ptions]

Iraq was going to invade us? Afghanistan was too?

No they invaded Kuwait.


It really is quite simple.

Ah - did they invade Kuwait in 2003 too?

And who did Afghanistan invade?

[Default0ptions]

So, simple question.
Has Russia invaded Ukraine?

Are you blind? Of course they have. Just as we have invaded other countries.

The question is why did Russia invade Ukraine.

[clv101]

The question is why did Russia invade Ukraine.

Firstly because Ukraine is physically, materially, an incredibly important territory for the 2nd half of the 21st century. And secondly because Putin believed he could. If Kiev and the government had fallen in the first 72 hours and a pro-Russia replacement installed we wouldn't have seen anything like the western involvement, total economic warfare yes, but there wouldn't have been the military support or attempt to reverse. Leaderless and without NATO support the the Ukrainian army would have dissolved into in insurgency, frustrating Russia but not killing thousands etc.

It was a gamble. Rather than asking why Russia invaded Ukraine I think it's more important to understand how and why it went so wrong for Russia.

[Default0ptions]

Look at Kiev. It’s pretty much intact.

Certainly nothing like Fallujah or even Baghdad after a little taste of shock and awe from our friends over the pond.

Russia said at the outset it had no intention to take Kiev.

We, on the other hand, are still occupying Baghdad.

[Default0ptions]

As for the proxy war, it makes perfect sense for it to be a proxy war.

Agreed.

So who is the proxy, and who are they a proxy for Stumuz?

[PS_RalphW]

DO you are being obtuse to the point of stupidity or trolling. All your questions have been answered a dozen times and still you try to confuse and obscure the very clear situation. You ignore any answer that you cannot obfuscate.

Why are you still posting on this thread? You aren't changing anyone's opinions.

Maybe we should split this thread into 2 - one for reporting of events as documented on other media (however questionable the source) and one for the background geopolitics an ethics and predictions about the future.

[Default0ptions]

I agree that it’s not getting any of us anywhere, Ralph, and I will stop posting on this subject.

[PS_RalphW]

Putin calls a halt to attempts to take the Azov steel works where 2000 Ukrainian troops and 1000 civilians are reportedly still holed up. They are to be starved out now.

91 yo woman who survived the holocaust and Stalin's purges and engineered famines has died in Mariupol probably from hunger or cold whilst sheltering from the Russian bombardments.

[kenneal - lagger]

...............
Iraq was going to invade us? Afghanistan was too? We undoubtedly invaded them.

It really is quite simple.

Iraq was led by a man called Sadam Hussien who was gassing large numbers of the minority peoples of his country. He was supposed to have weapons on mass destruction. So it was wrong to remove a man who would gas a minority group in his country?

Afghanistan was taken over by a bunch of religious fanatics who were harbouring another bunch of more murderous religious fanatics who were als exporting death and destruction across the world. Do you not remember the attacks on the US by commercial airliner in which over 3000 innocent civilians were killed? Or is that OK, D0, because they were only American capitalists? America invaded Afghanistan to route out Al Quaida and did not indulge in mass artillery bombardments of Afghan cities, it did not deliberately and intentionally target civilians, nor did its troops indulge in mass rape, child killing and abductions. The same can be said of Iraq.

[Stumuz2]

As for the proxy war, it makes perfect sense for it to be a proxy war.

Agreed.

So who is the proxy, and who are they a proxy for Stumuz?

Read the whole paragraph. Let me know if there is anything in the paragraph that a Putin apologist does not understand.

"As for the proxy war, it makes perfect sense for it to be a proxy war. Most wars start as proxy wars. On 15 March 1939, German troops marched into Czechoslovakia. They took over Bohemia, and established a protectorate over Slovakia. This was done to protect ethnic German speakers. It was a proxy for invasion and genocide. Move forward 83 years and Putin has invaded Ukraine to protect the ethnic Russian speakers in the Donbass. The invasion is a proxy for invasion and war crimes being committed"

[kenneal - lagger]

As for the proxy war, it makes perfect sense for it to be a proxy war.

Agreed.

So who is the proxy, and who are they a proxy for Stumuz?

It is pretty bloody obvious that the completely unprovoked Russian attack on Ukraine has made the Ukraine a proxy for NATO. If NATO didn't support Ukraine to prevent Putin taking over that country NATO would end up having to defend itself directly as the mad Putin attacked the Baltic States and Poland in his attempt to recreate the Russia of old, the Soviet Union or even the Tsarist Empire. That is Putin's stated aim so what is wrong with conducting a proxy war to prevent an even greater war?

Or do you, Default0ptions, support Russia's right to re-enslave the former Russian sphere of influence? Do you support Putin's self proclaimed right to make Ukraine and all the Ukrainians that he hasn't slaughtered a part of Russia? Do you support Russia in those evil aims or do you support NATO in its efforts to protect nations which have freely chosen to ally themselves together to defend themselves from a man akin to Hitler who wishes to impose his will over their democratic decisions? Are you a democrat or an autocrat, D0?