P and O ferries in trouble.

[adam2]

Most or all staff sacked via a zoom call. Many are refusing to leave their cabins on board ships.
No sailings expected for several days.
It seems that the plan is replace most crew with cheaper foreign labour.

[clv101]

"P&O Ferries is one of the UK's leading ferry companies, carrying more than 10 million passengers a year before the pandemic and about 15% of all freight cargo in and out of the UK."

This is horrible behaviour from the employer. I feel the public are losing patience with such corporate behaviour... Those Labour plans to nationalise stuff might be gaining some public support.

[adam2]

Agree WRT to the horrible behavior of the employers.

Not convinced that nationalisation would help, might well make the situation worse. The anti racism industry would be horrified at any priority for UK citizens.

[adam2]

BTW, P and O are owned by a company based in Dubai, a place well known for good treatment of workers, and generally honourable behaviour.

[PS_RalphW]

The government acknowledge that they knew about the sackings in advance.

[Stumuz2]

Same thing happened in 2005 with Irish Ferries.

Replace evil sheik with with evil Irish government, and the rest of the story is the same.

The state owned Irish ferries sacked 500+ mostly Irish seafarers and replaced them with far cheaper mostly Latvian crew.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/ ... ansport.uk

No national outcry at the time because the Celtic tiger was in full roar and money was King, my friend in Dublin 5 was forever waxing lyrical on how much is ex corporation (council house) was now worth. He had no sympathy with the sacked workers, because it's money, the market, etc etc

[Mark]

Same thing happened in 2005 with Irish Ferries.

Replace evil sheik with with evil Irish government, and the rest of the story is the same.

The state owned Irish ferries sacked 500+ mostly Irish seafarers and replaced them with far cheaper mostly Latvian crew.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/ ... ansport.uk

No national outcry at the time because the Celtic tiger was in full roar and money was King, my friend in Dublin 5 was forever waxing lyrical on how much is ex corporation (council house) was now worth. He had no sympathy with the sacked workers, because it's money, the market, etc etc

Note that you carefully avoid saying what YOUR opinion is....

Mine is clear - this needs to be challenged in the courts and by any other available avenue
P&O seem to have contravened many employment laws - if this goes unchallenged, it sets a precedent for sending in the heavies to a workplace at an hours notice - anyone's workplace could be next...

The original owners of P&O will have made their handsome buck, but it now in the hands of Sultan Ahmed bin Sulayem
Dodgy owners of ferry companies are no different to dodgy owners of football clubs or anything else...
We need to tighten up who can buy our assets, but unfortunately since Maggie we've sold most of the family silver....

[adam2]

Other countries have laws or regulations against the foreign takeover of important infrastructure, including shipping lines.
The UK welcomes this and calls it "inward investment" rather than a takeover.

[automaticearth2]

Other countries have laws or regulations against the foreign takeover of important infrastructure, including shipping lines.
The UK welcomes this and calls it "inward investment" rather than a takeover.

The uk government are looking into the option of ditching all contracts with P&O. Guess we'll see how serious they are soon enough.

[Stumuz2]

Note that you carefully avoid saying what YOUR opinion is....

Opinions are like bottoms....we've all got one
My opinion is, this is another example of the elephant graph in action. We can sort out the elephant graph, but it will take pain, sacrifice, and the culling of sacred political theories. So, it won't happen.

Mine is clear - this needs to be challenged in the courts and by any other available avenue

It will be, everyone will make a song and dance about workers rights, blah blah blah. But, they are seafarers, and it depends where they are employed via their contracts. Cyprus? Dublin?
Notice the shore based employees were not affected, they will have full protection against redundancy.
Everyone who has flown Ryanair should know that the pilots are forced to open limited companies and become directors. All set up in Ireland to avoid sick pay and NiC contributions in the host country. Mmm EU, solidarity and values.

P&O seem to have contravened many employment laws - if this goes unchallenged, it sets a precedent for sending in the heavies to a workplace at an hours notice - anyone's workplace could be next...

No, This is particular to seafarers.

The original owners of P&O will have made their handsome buck, but it now in the hands of Sultan Ahmed bin Sulayem
Dodgy owners of ferry companies are no different to dodgy owners of football clubs or anything else...

Agree, but you buy businesses to make money, not an ongoing 100 million pound a year loss.

We need to tighten up who can buy our assets, but unfortunately since Maggie we've sold most of the family silver....

No, it's a really bad idea to either,
1/ nationalise commercial companies, as Warren Buffet once said,
If the government was put in charge of the dessert, it would run out of sand within 5 years!
Or,
2/ to only allow the xenophobic option of only British investors allowed to but British companies. The result would be a captive poorly served public, who could not use their fiercest potent weapon. Their pound.

[Mark]

Stumuz, reading your replies, you seem to think this is OK because
(a) it's happened before (Irish Ferries)
(b) it's the normal cut and thrust of a free market economy and they're losing money (probably as a result of COVID ?)

I'm fairly sure that the P&O crews on won't have been Directors - they'll just have been normal workers like most of us.
No idea about their employment contacts, but wherever they are held, the crews don't deserve to be treated like that.
You might think that workers rights are a song and dance, blah blah blah.... I don't - they've been hard fought for over many years to give protection from unscrupulous employers like mega wealthy Sultans from Dubai....

Pre-Brexit, I'm fairly sure this would have gone to the European Courts - let's see how it plays out in the bright new post-Brexit world...
Will workers rights get the same level of protection, or are we in a race to become the low wage, low skill sweatshop economy that was predicted ?

I agree with Adam2 - we should have laws/regulations against the foreign takeover of important infrastructure.
There would need to be a debate about what constitutes 'important infrastructure', but I would including shipping lines.
Too late now in this case, of course...., and for most of our important infrastructure which is already in foreign hands.....

[Stumuz2]

Stumuz, reading your replies, you seem to think this is OK because
(a) it's happened before (Irish Ferries)
(b) it's the normal cut and thrust of a free market economy and they're losing money (probably as a result of COVID ?)

No, I don't think it's OK. Irish ferries are a crappy employer, owned by a morally crappy Government. If you can screw over your own citizens, then you know your state has been captured by the beggar thy neighbour off shore Europe tax haven interests.

Any business which is losing money will close eventually, state owned or not.

I'm fairly sure that the P&O crews on won't have been Directors - they'll just have been normal workers like most of us.

Your point is?

No idea about their employment contacts, but wherever they are held, the crews don't deserve to be treated like that.

Agree.

You might think that workers rights are a song and dance, blah blah blah....

I never said that, go back and read, stop going on a frolic of your own.

The public will go blah blah blah and then nothing will happen. Until you take the pain of the elephant graph nothing will change.

- they've been hard fought for over many years to give protection from unscrupulous employers like mega wealthy Sultans from Dubai....

Agree. But the great voting public have reaped the advantages of the elephant graph. Can' t have it both ways

Pre-Brexit, I'm fairly sure this would have gone to the European Courts - let's see
how it plays out in the bright new post-Brexit world...

Meh. Ireland is still in the EU. Never stopped the Irish governments screwing their own citizens.

I agree with Adam2 - we should have laws/regulations against the foreign takeover of important infrastructure.
There would need to be a debate about what constitutes 'important infrastructure', but I would including shipping lines.

We do its called critical National Infrastructure. I know for a fact it is getting resources thrown at it since Putin went ' full tonto'

Sorry, link for CNI
https://www.cpni.gov.uk/critical-nation ... tructure-0

[Mark]

Sorry, link for CNI
https://www.cpni.gov.uk/critical-nation ... tructure-0

CPNI is focussed on providing advice and assistance to those who have responsibility for protecting these most crucial elements of the UK’s national infrastructure from national security threats.

Advice and assistance isn't the same as controlling ownership.

[BritDownUnder]

From what I understand the UAE is quite a big trading partner of the UK and it would probably upset them if they have to sell their investments. The UK has to consider these things in its policy.

However shortly after 9/11 Dubai Ports World tried to buy some American ports and got slapped down by the Congress in no uncertain terms. In some things size clearly does matter. Also if you see a corporate logo at an airport called "dnata" then this is also a Dubai owned company.

Maybe the wages thing is something the UK could work on? Or safety training of workers, language aptitude or something like that. Foreign workers in Australia are taxed assuming they are paid the same as Australians even if they are actually not. Maybe the UK could also claim the boat if registered in the UK is a UK workplace and enforce UK level wages on the employees? I am sure there are a million ways around this and this is probably why most merchant seamen today seem to be Indian, Ukrainian or Filipino.

[Mark]

P&O Ferries drags industrial relations back to the bad old days:
https://lloydslist.maritimeintelligence ... d-old-days