Ukraine Watch...

[adam2]

Please keep on topic and reasonably polite. Differing views and opinions are fine, but posts that simply insult another member rather than putting forward a differing view are not fine and are liable to be edited or deleted without notice.
Also this thread is about Ukraine and not about other wars.

[mr brightside]

Surely we can be flexible? I don't think it's for the members to dictate the content of the forum, our business is to chronicle variations in opinion or fluctuations in the concensus by providing reasonable and coherent counter-arguments. Accusations of trolling have always resonated with me as a position defaulted to; but that's just the twopenneth of some old fell runner. The people of this creaky old eccentric corner of cyberspace we know as Powerswitch have more in common than they realise, but will insist on thrashing out their few differences.

[mr brightside]

Sorry, the war...it's being reported that the people in the basement of the bombed theatre in Mariupol have largely survived!

[PS_RalphW]

The US is winding up the war criminal rhetoric in Putin. I am surprised that they are doing it at this moment as Ukraine is making moves to placate Russia and give Putin the chance to declare victory and leave. Perhaps they are mindful of Putin's long record of negotiating in bad faith just to grind down the morale of their enemy and they don't want Ukraine to give away too much.

The military intelligence reports suggest that Putin is planning for the long haul of bombing the cities into submission, bringing in reserves of long range artillery. At least there is no credible evidence of chemical weapons so far apart from phosphorus bombs which aren't actually illegal in a battlefield setting.

I just hope that the Ukrainians get the extra fire power they need to start driving the Russians back soon, otherwise Putin will simply dig in and slog it out. The longer the Ukrainians keep fighting, the more of Russia's military hardware gets trashed, and the less Putin will have left for other adventures.

Just as long as his generals keeps Putin's finger away from that button.

[Catweazle]

The longer the Ukrainians keep fighting, the more of Russia's military hardware gets trashed, and the less Putin will have left for other adventures.

I'm sure that angle hasn't been missed by the western countries that are sending smart missiles over by the thousand, each one capable of destroying a main battle tank - it's a dream come true for some.

[Vortex2]

As an aside, is anyone else totally sickened by the level of WESTERN propaganda relating to this conflict?

For example, the recent Daily Telegraph cartoons are very reminiscent of WW1 & WW2 propaganda designed to keep the UK population on-side.

It's not just me ... my wife has also noticed this.

TBH I would simply like the facts to be presented to the British public - unedited, complete and... without any jingoism.

[UndercoverElephant]

As an aside, is anyone else totally sickened by the level of WESTERN propaganda relating to this conflict?

For example, the recent Daily Telegraph cartoons are very reminiscent of WW1 & WW2 propaganda designed to keep the UK population on-side.

It's not just me ... my wife has also noticed this.

TBH I would simply like the facts to be presented to the British public - unedited, complete and... without any jingoism.

Torygraph gonna torygraph. Jingoism sells newspapers.

[Default0ptions]

As an aside, is anyone else totally sickened by the level of WESTERN propaganda relating to this conflict?

Yeah. I used to fondly imagine that a free press was kinda important. But that was way back when I thought that we had some kind of representative democracy too.

We just de-platform anything other than the party line now instead.

And the commenters on the main news websites seem to be competing for the title of ‘most eager to brainwash each other’.

Turns out that ‘no matter who you vote for the government always wins’.

At least we can be sure that we still have ‘the best government that money can buy’.

Still - you can rest assured that nowadays we can ‘create our own reality’.

Right along with printing energy and commodities just like we print money.

Do I need to put a </sarcasm> tag on there?

[PS_RalphW]

I think you are very much mistaken if you think that the UK media is simply the mouthpiece of government. A very large part of it is the mouthpiece of the media 's owners, who may or may not be on side with the government of the day. I do agree that the BBC is heavily influenced, far more than it admits, by political control over the editorial policy. It is fairly easy to spot when it's headlines have been dictated by the government of the day.

The vast majority of UK media is hopelessly dumbed down and reduces nuance to little more than slogans. However, the UKrain invasion was so heavily telegraphed in advance, and Internet access has held up so well, this is by far the most observed and documented war in history, and editorially there is an embarrassment of footage to include. There are hundreds of independent reporters running around and millions of social media accounts, and if you pay attention to who is talking, and what their motivations are in any situation. You can get a good overview of a situation as much by what people don't talk about as by what they do say.
It helps to have had a passing interest in geopolitics since the Falklands war (which my brother was involved in on the intelligence side) and to keep tally of who said what, and notice how official histories change to meet the interests of the governments of the day over the years.

And finally it is important to remember that war needs to be a last resort, that 99% of people in every country on this planet are decent and fair minded and simply want to get on with their lives. Geopolitics is a game that is about control over people and resources, and controlling people is about telling them the lies they want to hear,
The bottom line is that truth is always subjective but what is important is the truth and decency of the 99% and they do not want war, guns or bombs.

The overwhelming impression I get from my 40 years of war and media watching is that this is a brutal and unjustified war of conquest ordered directly by Putin and that the media reporting is accurate in reporting events and people's reactions and motivations. There have been very few reports of ordinary people backing the Russians because very few people in Ukraine who support or will ever even tolerate the Russian invaders.

[clv101]

I still find it incredible just how badly Russia are doing. I think it's clear, the initial plan for for a rapid political decapitation, for the Ukrainian defence to fold in days if not hours and for it all to happen so fast that the West et al wouldn't have time either organise sanctions or significant military support, has failed.

That the first approach failed within the first 48 hrs - what then? If Putin actually wanted to gain control of the considerable natural resource wealth then what's happened over the last two weeks is a terrible approach, the slow grind is hugely damaging to the Russia army, the Russia economy, the Russian political position, the Ukrainian infrastructure and tens (approaching hundred?) of thousands of deaths - for what? This approach *isn't* going to deliver control of the territory and resources. It's just heading towards a military defeat and the end of Russia as a global power (politically, economically etc).

Since Putin is clearly willing to do what he has just done - why not just drop a few small nukes on day three? The *damage* to Russia and possibly even Ukraine might have been less! Very little loss of Russia people or equipment. A few nukes, a few square miles of urban destruction, a decapitation of the Ukrainian leadership and collapse of the Ukrainian army. Russia's global reputation couldn't be much worse than it is already but he would have won the territory. Personally, from both the moral and physical points of view I don't see a massive difference between weeks of conventional artillery pounding a besieged city and a 10kt nuclear detonation.

In short, given where Russia is now and what they have shown themselves capable of, I don't really understand why they wouldn't use small nuclear weapons if the alternative is military defeat.

[adam2]

A few small nukes would indeed not be much more damaging the intensive attacks with conventional weapons that are underway right now.

ANY use of nuclear weapons is however crossing a very dangerous line indeed. Poland next.

[BritDownUnder]

In many ways I am somewhat disappointed at the lack of 'good' footage of Russian military destruction though I have not looked that hard.

I have seen two helicopters destroyed, one very poor quality footage crashing in a lake accompanied by shouts of "Sook" (Russian for bitch) and one rather spectacularly turned into a fireball. The best footage I have seen is of the APC attempting to force a barricade and being met with what can only be described as a fiery hail of Molotov cocktails setting it alight end to end. Then the comedy including the Russian sniper team trapped in a lift, an old Ukrainian learning to mix Molotov cocktails and looking forward to greeting his 'special guests' with a 'strong' drink.

I am not sure the Russians will use nukes as it will probably invite a Western response of some kind.

It still looks like the Russians will make grinding progress and one can only hope that more Western arms can force a solution.

[Catweazle]

In many ways I am somewhat disappointed at the lack of 'good' footage of Russian military destruction though I have not looked that hard.

It might be because the destruction is carried out at long range, the Javelin missiles are destroying tanks up to 4km away, even the NLAW missiles can reach 800 meters. Latest "kamikaze" drones from the US have a range of up to 50km and are autonomous.

There are two types of Switchblade drone, the 300 and 600 series. The 300 is intended for use against personnel, while the 600 is intended for use against tanks and armored vehicles. It is unclear which - or if both - are being sent to Ukraine.

Both variants are unmanned and seek out targets using onboard sensors and GPS technology.

“These were designed for U.S. Special Operations Command and are exactly the type of weapons systems that can have an immediate impact on the battlefield,” Mick Mulroy, a former deputy assistant secretary of defense, said.

According to The New York Times, the drones are part the White House's latest $800m infusion of military aid into Ukraine. That aid includes 800 additional Stinger anti-aircraft missiles, 9,000 anti-tank weapons, 100 tactical drones, and small arms like machine guns and grenade launchers.

It's WW3 by proxy.

[Stumuz2]

We just de-platform anything other than the party line now instead.

And the commenters on the main news websites seem to be competing for the title of ‘most eager to brainwash each other’.

Do I need to put a </sarcasm> tag on there?

I was watching Sky news on Wednesday night at 10 pm. The presenter Anna botting, started to cry and became very upset, after the footage of the dead babies wrapped in old cloth stored in the basement until such time as it would be safe to bury them decently. The babies according to Sky, were killed when Russian munitions hit the hospital.

You seem to be implying that these babies were killed by Ukrainians to embarrass Putin, or, they were not killed and it was a staged scene or fake news.

So. The babies. Fake news or Ukrainians?

[UndercoverElephant]

It still looks like the Russians will make grinding progress and one can only hope that more Western arms can force a solution.

It doesn't look like that anymore. The Russians are having increasingly serious problems resupplying their front line troops with food, fuel and ammunition. Putin is looking for a way out now. The problem is that if this involves territorial concessions the Ukraine may prefer to keep fighting.