Are we on the brink of an electric car revolution?

[kenneal - lagger]

UK EV sales reached 10% in June, exceeding traditional (non hybrid) diesel sales. Tesla model 3 was the best selling car overall. (they have a 3 monthly sales push to help their quartly financial figures)

On current trends, EVs will be dominant long before 2030.

Which is why some car makers, such as Volvo, are talking about going entirely over to EVs by 2025.

The Tesla 3 being the top seller though does indicate the sort of person who is able to get on trend, though. It is hardly the little runabout for the small, working class family is it?

[clv101]

The Tesla 3 being the top seller though does indicate the sort of person who is able to get on trend, though. It is hardly the little runabout for the small, working class family is it?

They'll come. EVs have the potential to be cheaper than ICE vehicles (and far cheaper operational costs and likely greater longevity). However, larger, more expensive vehicles are more profitable so it's natural the industry focuses at that end while the technology is still developing rapidly and economics of scale are still ramping up.

[kenneal - lagger]

Perhaps governments should start to put weight limits on EVs just as they put pollution limits on ICE cars to try and get the size and power of new EVs down. That would increase mileages even more than improved batteries would ever do.

We have to get away from the idea that a car is an ego booster or penis substitute and get cars built more to suit a given purpose such as getting one or two people an average distance of 20 miles max between A and B in as economic way as possible. Yes, a few people want to go a couple of hundred miles every so often so some cars should be capable of doing that comfortably. Reps swanning around the country in a completely unnecessary car which projects the companies image should be stamped on very quickly. A tax on them!! A huge one. That should stamp them out.

[clv101]

Perhaps governments should start to put weight limits on EVs just as they put pollution limits on ICE cars to try and get the size and power of new EVs down. That would increase mileages even more than improved batteries would ever do.

That's a great idea, could be 650kg class 1000kg, 1500kg etc with increasing tax bands from zero up to several hundred a year. Weight is a great proxy for efficiency in EVs.

[PS_RalphW]

Actually, weight is far less directly linked to efficiency in EVs than in traditional cars, due to regenerative braking. Aerodynamics are very important, at speeds above about 30 miles an hour. Driving style is also a big factor. Tyre choice is surprisingly important - most EVs are unnecessarily powerful, and have bigger and fatter tyres than is strictly necessary, but the 'sporty' ones like Jaguar are particularly inefficient.
Tesla model 3 is still the most efficient on the market, due to aerodynamics, motor design, battery chemistry and better energy management software.
That said, weight is a good proxy for energy consumed in manufacture, except for the BMW i3 which is carbon fibre and has far higher production energy costs than its weight would suggest.
Bigger batteries are obviously a bigger source of embedded energy than small ones, so we should use the smallest battery that meets our needs, but the market is going in the exact opposite direction.
A 50KWh Renault Zoe was recently driven over 400 miles on one charge - That is 8 miles/Kwh, half the average consumption of my Nissan Leaf. It averaged 19mph and the drive took two days.

[emordnilap]

Question (probably for adam2).

What is the typical grid efficiency these days? That is, energy in for energy out?

Also, how much of a full charge of a typical electric car does it take to carry its own batteries around?

[adam2]

Question (probably for adam2).

What is the typical grid efficiency these days? That is, energy in for energy out?

Also, how much of a full charge of a typical electric car does it take to carry its own batteries around?

Losses from power station gate to end consumer are about 10% . No great accuracy may be claimed in this as there are several differing definitions of losses, and the actual losses are continually varying.
The electrical distribution industry are adept at reducing these losses on paper by re-defining "end user" in the case of larger developments,

A reasonable estimate of the energy cost in an EV of carting around its own battery may be made by comparing the weight of the battery with the total vehicle weight.
The energy cost due to the weight of the battery is liable to increase for two reasons, firstly batteries are getting cheaper which makes larger ones more affordable, and secondly lighter weight body work is becoming more popular which increases the percentage weight for a fixed size battery. And of course a lighter body enables a bigger battery to be fitted.

[emordnilap]

Question (probably for adam2).

What is the typical grid efficiency these days? That is, energy in for energy out?

Losses from power station gate to end consumer are about 10% . No great accuracy may be claimed in this as there are several differing definitions of losses, and the actual losses are continually varying.
The electrical distribution industry are adept at reducing these losses on paper by re-defining "end user" in the case of larger developments,

Thanks. Interesting.

Further question: are there any estimates of efficiency from actual energy source to end consumer? As a for instance, getting coal from a deep mine somewhere (drilling, lifting, loading, transporting, crushing, blowing into furnace etc) or, indeed, mining minerals, producing concrete, maintenance etc of wind-generated energy?

[adam2]

Coal burning power stations are up to about 33%/35% efficient. This includes all consumption by ancillary plant within the power station, but does NOT include the energy used in mining and transporting the coal. These are very small as a percentage of the energy content of the coal.

Wind turbines are said to repay the energy used in construction in a few months of normal operation.

[emordnilap]

Thanks.

[kenneal - lagger]

Look for EROEI or EROI, Energy Return On Energy Invested. There are quite a few websites and academic institutions which have published work on this. EROEIs can vary quite a bit between different sources depending on where limits are set: do you include the night Watchman's supper for instance?

[Mark]

Electric Vehicle enquiries up 260% week on week for this weekends volume - any idea why
As soon as we start getting power cuts, everybody will be looking back to petrol/diesel....
I guess the rich and powerful will hedge their bets and have one of each.....

For mere mortals, which do we consider to be the more resilient in the long term ?

[Catweazle]

There is a real need for aftermarket or affordable battery packs for cars. My youngest lad bought a Mitsubishi Outlander hybrid in 2014, the battery is now in such a poor state that it only manages 4 miles on a full mains charge and won't get past 1 mile on regenerative charging. The replacement battery is several thousand pounds, an amount that many people won't spend on a car of that age, so it spends 90% of the time on petrol now.

[Catweazle]

For mere mortals, which do we consider to be the more resilient in the long term ?

I'd love an EV 4x4, I do little mileage and have the potential to generate my own electricity. The cost is the biggest problem, but the fact that there is no attempt at standardising battery packs is another.

I'd like to see a system working like Calor gas bottles, where the batteries are owned by a power company and can be simply slid out and replaced with a fresh one in a forecourt.

[PS_RalphW]

Cars with interchangable batteries are available in China. The battery swap is in a special robotic garage like a car wash. Not sure if they have the numbers of users to make the process economic.

Battery charging rates are increasing rapidly, as is chemistry. Too soon to move to standards yet, although the EU is standardising on the CCS charge plug. 800V battery packs are coming in, and charge speeds up to 350KW means that a full charge in theory can be had in 20 - 30 minutes (or at least up to 80%), and that is without new chemistries like solid state.

EVs with a motor for each wheel are in development. They have electronic traction control at least as good as any 4X4, with no transmission overhead at all.

At present replacement battery packs are only really available from crash write-off vehicles.

Both my electric and and diesel cars currently have full 'tanks'