Not sure I agree on the equality point, but agree on the education point entirely.
Yes there are brutal societies which subjugate and enslave women (Saudi hang your head in shame) but most enlightened societies which have universal suffrage, women are usually in charge of their destiny.
If they want to be. (This is a huge subject dive in at your peril )
Historically women have been enslaved by brute force but at the moment they have probably a once in a lifetime of the human race opportunity to take control as Stu says, "if they wish," at least in Democratic countries. As others have said, though, as we go further down the slope towards the crash that opportunity will lessen as economies start to die. Islam and the cultures around it though do constitute a barrier to worldwide full emancipation.
A protest in Bristol against the legislation has turned violent. At least one police vehicle burnt, some reports state several. Many shop windows smashed and property looted.
adam2 wrote: ↑21 Mar 2021, 23:54
A protest in Bristol against the legislation has turned violent. At least one police vehicle burnt, some reports state several. Many shop windows smashed and property looted.
This is what happens when the local mayor gives a nudge nudge wink wink to Marxist under achievers to pull down statues which do not fit in with their self imposed sense of grievance.
More to come. As we slide down the resource curve, more under achievers will think they are hard done by.
Stumuz2 wrote: ↑22 Mar 2021, 08:55
This is what happens when the local mayor gives a nudge nudge wink wink to Marxist under achievers to pull down statues which do not fit in with their self imposed sense of grievance.
From this, I gather that you think that we should still be honouring Slave Traders in modern multicultural Britain ?
Many people saw the statue as an insult and tried for many years to have it removed in a dignified manner, but nobody would listen....
So when tensions are high (George Floyd) you can't be surprised when people take matters into their own hands and push it into the harbour...
That's totally different to trying to burn down the local Police Station, which is obviously wrong.
If the first event had been dealt with properly, MAYBE the second event could have been avoided ?
The Coulson statue was originally 'honouring' Coulson in the 1700's. You cannot look at 2020 Britain wearing 1700 spectacles. That is absurd.
What the rabble did was pull down history. Our history. They had no right to do it. As for the Janus faced mayor egging them on, then denying he gave succour to criminals. Enough said.
Where is the next target for the thugs? Liverpool Albert docks? Penryhn castle? Most of the National trust properties?
And why is trying to burn down the local police station any different? Same thuggery, different day.
Edward Colston lived from 1636–1721, but his statue wasn't put up until 1895.
So, people with 1895 spectacles were looking honour him long after he had died and slavery had been abolished.
Times change, (hopefully) views change, (hopefully) society changes - with 2020 spectacles, we should put Slave Traders into some context....
If you didn't want the statue to come down, would you have agreed to erect thousands of statues of manacled slaves around him.... ?
Or are you selective about the parts of history you like us to honour ?
Mark wrote: ↑22 Mar 2021, 12:46
Few observations Stumuz.
Edward Colston lived from 1636–1721, but his statue wasn't put up until 1895.
So, people with 1895 spectacles were looking honour him long after he had died and slavery had been abolished.
Times change, (hopefully) views change, (hopefully) society changes - with 2020 spectacles, we should put Slave Traders into some context....
If you didn't want the statue to come down, would you have agreed to erect thousands of statues of manacled slaves around him.... ?
Or are you selective about the parts of history you like us to honour ?
Yes, Bristol people in 1895 honoured him. Correct. Said thank you for the civic works, Colston hall etc etc. That is history. A manifestation of our past. Worts an' all.
Really silly comparison to suggest that if you do not want history erased, then people would want statues of manacled slaves. Prize wokery.
It's like suggesting that if you ever watched an episode of Jim'll fix it, you want statues of kiddie fiddlers put up. Muddled thinking.
I don't think the link between history and statues is very strong, and removing a statue absolutely isn't 'erasing history'.
History is 'mainly' recorded, remembered, studied etc through the mediums of: books, TV and radio documentaries, museums, schools, universities etc.
Statues on the other hand are much less about 'history' (which is ALL about context) but are about honouring, celebrating individuals, typically completely devoid of that all important context.
Bristol council have said the statue will be re-homed in a museum. Which is a good place to provide/remember/study Colston's history, including the latest episode of his story last summer.
clv101 wrote: ↑22 Mar 2021, 14:12
I don't think the link between history and statues is very strong, and removing a statue absolutely isn't 'erasing history'.
Really? You don't think cenotaphs around the country is a 'strong link with history? Really? I mean really really?
I'm talking about statues of individuals. And I'm quite comfortable with the idea that "books, TV and radio documentaries, museums, schools, universities etc." are much more important when it comes to the history of an individual than their statue.
Stumuz2 wrote: ↑22 Mar 2021, 13:23
Yes, Bristol people in 1895 honoured him. Correct. Said thank you for the civic works, Colston hall etc etc. That is history. A manifestation of our past. Worts an' all.
& the people of 2020 were highlighting that the money for it all came from slave trading....
That is history. A manifestation of our past, but a point you choose to dismiss as a few 'warts'.....
If you read my post, I said that as an alternative to pulling it down, maybe ADDING some slaves around his statue might put him in some context...?
Nowhere did I mention erasing history - I'm just in favour of making it bit more balanced.....
Maybe you're just more in tune with 1895 thinking ?
Colston was only part of the trade and the origin of the trade is never discussed. Colston bought his slaves from Arab and African traders who in turn bought them from African tribal chiefs and tribesmen who took those slaves in war from other African tribes. So the origin of the trade is in Africa and with Africans who sold their fellow people into slavery. But that is just a bit too much to absorb for most survivors of the slave trade so is glossed over very quickly making the problem one for the evil white people only.
I am quite happy to accept joint the responsibility of my ancient predecessors with African chiefs but I feel no personal guilt. I even feel a bit of pride in the fact that it was the British government which stopped the slave trade where it could although it still carries on in many places, especially the middle east.
Mark wrote: ↑22 Mar 2021, 14:33
& the people of 2020 were highlighting that the money for it all came from slave trading....
Yes we knew. Everyone knew. That's how Bristol became wealthy. Tearing down the statue was just thuggery.
Mark wrote: ↑22 Mar 2021, 14:33
That is history. A manifestation of our past, but a point you choose to dismiss as a few 'warts'.....
It's not dismissed. Slavery is part of our history. We should not apologise or feel bad about.We have done nothing wrong.1790 morality is not 2021 morality. Its just pitiful virtue signalling to suggest otherwise.
Mark wrote: ↑22 Mar 2021, 14:33If you read my post, I said that as an alternative to pulling it down, maybe ADDING some slaves around his statue might put him in some context...?
Why try to rewrite history? History comes a variety of sources, it's in the place names, it's in our very infrastructure, it's in the statues, the buildings, why do you feel the need to add subjective context?
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