Fracking is over in the UK

BritDownUnder · Post by **BritDownUnder** » 23 Jun 2020, 11:17

I think it makes sense for the UK to be aware of the viability of its shale gas resources before they abandon the possibility of their future extraction. Although the amount of UK energy supplied by renewables is rising (11% of total energy demand), and I think that is a good thing, the country may still have to rely on gas electricity generation and heating for some time. Given the depletion in UK conventional gas supply and the increasing reliance on imports of gas it makes sense to know if domestic gas from fracking is a viable possibility.

Therefore I think it makes sense to carry out some form of fracked gas exploration.

emordnilap · Post by **emordnilap** » 23 Jun 2020, 14:09

BritDownUnder wrote:I think it makes sense for the UK to be aware of the viability of its shale gas resources before they abandon the possibility of their future extraction. Although the amount of UK energy supplied by renewables is rising (11% of total energy demand), and I think that is a good thing, the country may still have to rely on gas electricity generation and heating for some time. Given the depletion in UK conventional gas supply and the increasing reliance on imports of gas it makes sense to know if domestic gas from fracking is a viable possibility.

Therefore I think it makes sense to carry out some form of fracked gas exploration.

?

You'd be happy with it happening under your feet? You're practically alone if so, BDU.

As regards renewables, the absolute figure keeps rising; yet the human population used more fossil fuels in 2019 than any year previously. So yes, fracking will resume, we're addicted.

BritDownUnder · Post by **BritDownUnder** » 23 Jun 2020, 23:08

The UKs short term energy future is a choice of not very palatable options. More about that later.

I would be happier if the UK supplied all of its own energy and that came from renewables. However the UK is nowhere near this situation now. They are on 11% of total energy use (not just electricity but transportation and industry too) from renewables and this may increase by about 1% per year at current rates.

Looking at the DUKES paper from the UK government the UK gets 6 mtoe (million tonnes of oil equivalent) of energy from renewables and 15 from nuclear, 10 mtoe from coal, 85 mtoe from natural gas and 140 mtoe from oil. Currently about half the energy supplied from natural gas is imported mainly from Russia and Qatar - two not very nice countries. The oil figure is a lot more unclear as a lot of crude oil and derivatives are both imported and exported. The oil is mostly used for transportation while natural gas and renewables are a bit more interchangeable for their final usage.

All I am saying is that it is best to have an idea of how easy it is to extract your gas from your own shale reserves giving you an alternative to importing. Sometimes there is no right choice. You could import gas from Russia who may insist as part of the deal that the UK withdraws from NATO, gives up its seat on the UN security council and gives up nuclear weapons. You could import gas from Qatar who might insist the UK takes in one million Syrian and other Muslim 'refugees' per year as part of the deal. Highly unlikely right now but in 10 years could be very possible.

Options are...

Import more gas with political, economic and social consequences.
Frack your own gas if you can.
More nuclear.
Energy efficiency.
Increase renewables at about 1% of total energy use per year taking about 80 years to displace natural gas.
More coal power stations.

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 24 Jun 2020, 15:46

You left out the option, BDU, of reducing our gas consumption by 40% by insulating our homes and going over to a renewable electricity powered heat pump heating system. A further reduction could be engineered by changing industrial heating to electric power.

That would increase our energy security massively while increasing our home comfort at the same time. It would reduce our reliance on any one country for imports as well.

ReserveGrowthRulz · Post by **ReserveGrowthRulz** » 24 Jun 2020, 16:16

kenneal - lagger wrote:You left out the option, BDU, of reducing our gas consumption by 40% by insulating our homes and going over to a renewable electricity powered heat pump heating system. A further reduction could be engineered by changing industrial heating to electric power.

Do you think the UK politicians can sell austerity any better than anyone else has?

vtsnowedin · Post by **vtsnowedin** » 24 Jun 2020, 17:02

BritDownUnder wrote: Increase renewables at about 1% of total energy use per year taking about 80 years to displace natural gas.

What keeps that number from being increased to 3 or even 5%? The current 1% is the product of current energy prices and the funds allocated to it.

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 24 Jun 2020, 19:04

ReserveGrowthRulz wrote:
kenneal - lagger wrote:You left out the option, BDU, of reducing our gas consumption by 40% by insulating our homes and going over to a renewable electricity powered heat pump heating system. A further reduction could be engineered by changing industrial heating to electric power.
Do you think the UK politicians can sell austerity any better than anyone else has? ...............

What the **** has insulating houses got to do with "austerity", RGR?

You have lost the plot!Â¬

ReserveGrowthRulz · Post by **ReserveGrowthRulz** » 25 Jun 2020, 00:22

kenneal - lagger wrote:
ReserveGrowthRulz wrote:
kenneal - lagger wrote:You left out the option, BDU, of reducing our gas consumption by 40% by insulating our homes and going over to a renewable electricity powered heat pump heating system. A further reduction could be engineered by changing industrial heating to electric power.
Do you think the UK politicians can sell austerity any better than anyone else has? ...............
What the **** has insulating houses got to do with "austerity", RGR?

You have lost the plot!Â¬

Requiring folks to spend money they normally wouldn't seems to qualify. If the government is going to pay for all houses to be insulated, I imagine everyone will be thrilled for the freeby.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 25 Jun 2020, 00:31

ReserveGrowthRulz wrote:
kenneal - lagger wrote:
ReserveGrowthRulz wrote: Do you think the UK politicians can sell austerity any better than anyone else has? ...............
What the **** has insulating houses got to do with "austerity", RGR?

You have lost the plot!Â¬
Requiring folks to spend money they normally wouldn't seems to qualify. If the government is going to pay for all houses to be insulated, I imagine everyone will be thrilled for the freeby.

I thought you had been banned.....

BritDownUnder · Post by **BritDownUnder** » 25 Jun 2020, 09:26

Actually I was wrong that Qatar is the biggest gas supplier, Norway is. It supplies about 25% of UK gas consumption by pipeline. Qatar is the biggest LNG supplier, then Russia, then the good old USA.

I see no reason why the percentage of renewables being installed is not increased, even doubled every year but maybe costs and availability are constraints on this.

As for insulation I did say energy efficiency which could cover insulation which is a great idea. Australia had in insulation scheme run by the Labor Party which was one of their rare inspired policies - brought about by the lead singer of Midnight Oil who was then a Labor minister.

Substituting domestic gas for heat pumps could be dangerous if the increased electricity supplying the heat pumps comes from gas power stations, it must come from renewables, otherwise the greater efficiency of the heat pump will be negated by the relative inefficiencies of gas power stations.

Lots of things to think about but the take home message is this. If you want to stop gas imports and don't want to frack then you must be more energy efficient and increase the share of renewables at a pace to meet the decline in gas.

fuzzy · Post by **fuzzy** » 25 Jun 2020, 10:55

Also not feasible for the mainly urban serfs. You need space to extract heat from your surroundings

Mark · Post by **Mark** » 26 Jun 2020, 08:36

fuzzy wrote:Also not feasible for the mainly urban serfs. You need space to extract heat from your surroundings

Do you know the minimum footprint required to make it feasible, with current technology ?

BritDownUnder · Post by **BritDownUnder** » 26 Jun 2020, 09:16

Mark wrote:
fuzzy wrote:Also not feasible for the mainly urban serfs. You need space to extract heat from your surroundings
Do you know the minimum footprint required to make it feasible, with current technology ?

I think that David MacKay in his book "Sustainable Energy without the hot air" was not a fan of geothermal heat pumps as he though the UK was just too densely populated, for urban areas anyway. I could not follow his maths on underground heat transfer. Too complex.

As for air source heat pumps if you are blasting cold air at your close neighbour then there could be an adverse effect on their temperature.
Not all bad though. The could be district heating schemes in coastal areas that get their 'heat' from the open sea or dump their cold into, hmmm, data centres or freezing works or something.
This video looks at large scale heat pumps and district heating. You may even get heat from a river if the fish don't mind.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 26 Jun 2020, 11:58

BritDownUnder wrote:
Mark wrote:
fuzzy wrote:Also not feasible for the mainly urban serfs. You need space to extract heat from your surroundings
Do you know the minimum footprint required to make it feasible, with current technology ?
I think that David MacKay in his book "Sustainable Energy without the hot air" was not a fan of geothermal heat pumps as he though the UK was just too densely populated, for urban areas anyway. I could not follow his maths on underground heat transfer. Too complex.

As for air source heat pumps if you are blasting cold air at your close neighbour then there could be an adverse effect on their temperature.
Not all bad though. The could be district heating schemes in coastal areas that get their 'heat' from the open sea or dump their cold into, hmmm, data centres or freezing works or something.
This video looks at large scale heat pumps and district heating. You may even get heat from a river if the fish don't mind.

If the river is not already artificially hotter than it would otherwise be, the fish will mind.

There is no such thing as a free lunch. There was never such a thing as a free lunch. Hydrocarbons merely allowed us to pretend, for a while, there was. That's all.

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 27 Jun 2020, 15:27

BritDownUnder wrote:.................Substituting domestic gas for heat pumps could be dangerous if the increased electricity supplying the heat pumps comes from gas power stations, it must come from renewables, otherwise the greater efficiency of the heat pump will be negated by the relative inefficiencies of gas power stations. ....................

Which is how the gas companies are selling the use of heat pumps. They reduce the carbon intensity of gas by at least a half!!!