The third ethic of permaculture

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UndercoverElephant
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The third ethic of permaculture

Post by UndercoverElephant »

I found this article recently, while researching for part of a book I am writing. The section in question is about how agriculture and industrialisation led to overpopulation and will eventually lead to a massive food crisis. But what is the way forwards? We can't go back to hunter-gathering, so if conventional agriculture is not unsustainable, don't we need permaculture?

This article is about the third ethic of permaculture, which was originally about limiting growth, but has been warped into something about fairness.

https://www.permaculturenews.org/2017/0 ... maculture/

My own thoughts are below (it is NOT a quote from the article, though covers the same ground). I am posting this here in the hope of being able to improve this text. What have I forgotten? What else needs saying?
Is a sustainable post-agricultural society possible? This was another question being asked in the late 60s, and the answer that emerged in the early 70s, along with the fledgling environmental movement and new foraging culture, was permaculture. It is a philosophy encompassing food production and much more, with a goal of establishing a new ecological balance between humans and the ecosystems we inhabit. The name means “permanent agriculture�, implying that agriculture as we know it is an impermanent state of affairs.

Permaculture and anarcho-primitivism have some important things in common. Both consider conventional modern agriculture to be harmful, and seek a new relationship between humans our food – one that works in harmony with the natural world rather than attempting to dominate it. The godfather of permaculture - Bill Mollison – drew on indigenous practices, rather than inventing something entirely new. Permaculture does away with all the neat domestic vegetable beds, and monocultures of crops. It creates wild-looking spaces with their own mini-ecosystems designed to produce ‘abundance’, which is then harvested in a more foraging-like way than traditional crops. A lot of the initial work involves observing the land and then working with it, rather than imposing upon it. Permaculture is a whole system, from sacrificial crops to keep the birds happy, who will also eat the pests, to companion plants that bring up nutrients from deep underground or suck nitrogen from the air. It also includes animals for pest control (ducks for slugs, chickens for grubs) and manure.

But permaculture goes way beyond food production. It is intended to replace agriculture, not just as a set of procedures, but as a way of life, just as agriculture replaced the hunter-gathering way of life. It is about people and planet, and because of that it has run into serious difficulties.

The three equal principles of permaculture, as they were originally stated:

Care of the earth

Care of people

Setting limits to population and consumption

The first two are relatively unproblematic, but the third principle has been relentlessly attacked by people who want to water it down or replace it entirely with a principle about fairness. Worthy though the goal of fairness may be in terms of human rights and justice, incorporating it into permaculture in place of limiting growth fatally undermines the whole project. Firstly it renders permaculture incapable of delivering sustainability/permanence, by removing the essential recognition of limits to growth. Secondly, it appears to demand permaculturists embrace something like socialism at every level, including globally. I am sympathetic to socialism, but the limits to growth are more fundamental than any ideological, political or economic system. Our politics must adapt to them, not the other way around. And can we realistically or ethically demand people prioritise equally the well-being of 8 billion other humans when their own survival is threatened?

If we are ever going to build a sustainable human society, then we must learn from the worst mistakes of the past. To reject the principle of limits to population and consumption is to repeat those mistakes. Though it is presented as a claim to the humanitarian moral high ground, it looks very much like a refusal to accept the social, economic and political consequences of acknowledging an unwanted but inescapable truth: either we choose to set, and abide by, realistic limits to population and consumption, or limits will be imposed on us by the rest of the ecosystem whether we like it or not.
Last edited by UndercoverElephant on 24 Jun 2020, 10:45, edited 1 time in total.
Little John

Post by Little John »

I agree with all of the sentiment.

None of the changes suggested are going to happen though.

We are just monkeys in shoes.
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

Little John wrote:I agree with all of the sentiment.

None of the changes suggested are going to happen though.

We are just monkeys in shoes.
If we end up with ongoing collapse, then the choice will eventually be between building a sustainable civilisation or allowing collapse to continue. Maybe then people will be ready to listen.
Little John

Post by Little John »

UndercoverElephant wrote:
Little John wrote:I agree with all of the sentiment.

None of the changes suggested are going to happen though.

We are just monkeys in shoes.
If we end up with ongoing collapse, then the choice will eventually be between building a sustainable civilisation or allowing collapse to continue. Maybe then people will be ready to listen.
Collapse will continue with the rise of a new Caesarism of which the likes of Trump are merely the aperitif to the main party. Followed, in due course, by a political collapse to even older, more primitive cultural forms such as warlords and the further organizational collapse into city states.
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Post by kenneal - lagger »

Very good UE.

While the limits to growth will be imposed on us by our environment and its constraints, fairness, the equal distribution of human wealth, is something that would be imposed on us by humans rather than the environment and I can't see the wealthy humans giving up their wealth without a fight.

Who wins that fight depends on how many people the rich can bribe to fight for them and how many people die in the transition from a growth society to a post growth society. The more people who die in the transition the less there is likely to be conflict after as there will be more space for resource, food and energy acquisition in the "new world."

It will also depend on how many people are willing to go right back to a feudal system again with the Lord of the Manor presiding over subservient knights and serfs. Or would people remember their history and opt for a cooperative system of equal rights? I would think that there would be a mix and the stronger system would win. Back to the Cold War again!!! But on a smaller scale.

One thing mitigating against a feudal system is that the feudal Lords were strong men who could actually win a fight. I can't see any of today's financial strong men winning a fight with anyone so they will have a problem holding onto their wealth for any length of time and that wealth has less pulling power as most of it is digital wealth which will disappear along with the digital era.
Action is the antidote to despair - Joan Baez
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Post by kenneal - lagger »

The extreme wealth of the Gates and Bezos of the world will evaporate along with the financial system which support that wealth. Unless they convert that wealth into physical assets, food stores, physical gold and weapons for instance, before the crash they will lose all. Many of them may be trying to convert some of that wealth now as the queue to purchase physical gold is getting longer by the day and the waiting time is following suite.
Action is the antidote to despair - Joan Baez
Little John

Post by Little John »

kenneal - lagger wrote:
One thing mitigating against a feudal system is that the feudal Lords were strong men who could actually win a fight. I can't see any of today's financial strong men winning a fight with anyone so they will have a problem holding onto their wealth for any length of time and that wealth has less pulling power as most of it is digital wealth which will disappear along with the digital era.
Then they will be replaced by men who can
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Post by vtsnowedin »

The financial strongmen can hire and pay for armies to win their fights for them. There has never been a shortage of mercenaries.
It is not which one of them is the best or strongest fighter but which is the best general.
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

kenneal - lagger wrote:Very good UE.

While the limits to growth will be imposed on us by our environment and its constraints, fairness, the equal distribution of human wealth, is something that would be imposed on us by humans rather than the environment and I can't see the wealthy humans giving up their wealth without a fight.

Who wins that fight depends on how many people the rich can bribe to fight for them and how many people die in the transition from a growth society to a post growth society. The more people who die in the transition the less there is likely to be conflict after as there will be more space for resource, food and energy acquisition in the "new world."
Yes. As soon as you change "limited" to "fair", you leave the level of first principles and get sucked deep into all sorts of political battles that have nothing to do with food production or sustainability. This is a massive unexamined assumption or unsupported claim that needs exposing: sustainable and fair aren't the same thing, and may well conflict. We can aim for both, but we musn't mix them up with each other.
It will also depend on how many people are willing to go right back to a feudal system again with the Lord of the Manor presiding over subservient knights and serfs. Or would people remember their history and opt for a cooperative system of equal rights? I would think that there would be a mix and the stronger system would win. Back to the Cold War again!!! But on a smaller scale.
I don't think we're going to go backwards to feudalism. That's culturally irreversible. I don't think the future is going to look much like the past.
Little John

Post by Little John »

UndercoverElephant wrote:
kenneal - lagger wrote:Very good UE.

While the limits to growth will be imposed on us by our environment and its constraints, fairness, the equal distribution of human wealth, is something that would be imposed on us by humans rather than the environment and I can't see the wealthy humans giving up their wealth without a fight.

Who wins that fight depends on how many people the rich can bribe to fight for them and how many people die in the transition from a growth society to a post growth society. The more people who die in the transition the less there is likely to be conflict after as there will be more space for resource, food and energy acquisition in the "new world."
Yes. As soon as you change "limited" to "fair", you leave the level of first principles and get sucked deep into all sorts of political battles that have nothing to do with food production or sustainability. This is a massive unexamined assumption or unsupported claim that needs exposing: sustainable and fair aren't the same thing, and may well conflict. We can aim for both, but we musn't mix them up with each other.
It will also depend on how many people are willing to go right back to a feudal system again with the Lord of the Manor presiding over subservient knights and serfs. Or would people remember their history and opt for a cooperative system of equal rights? I would think that there would be a mix and the stronger system would win. Back to the Cold War again!!! But on a smaller scale.
I don't think we're going to go backwards to feudalism. That's culturally irreversible. I don't think the future is going to look much like the past.
wanna bet?

It might take a century or three. That's all

Culture/politics are built on economics, which is built on biology and geography. It is not built the other way around. Not over the deep longer term.

If our energy inputs fall back to pre-industrial levels, so will our economics and consequent culture and politics.
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

Little John wrote:
Culture/politics are built on economics, which is built on biology and geography. It is not built the other way around. Not over the deep longer term.
Not true. Culture is built, at least in part, on previous culture. It is almost impossible to wipe out the past and start again.
Little John

Post by Little John »

UndercoverElephant wrote:
Little John wrote:
Culture/politics are built on economics, which is built on biology and geography. It is not built the other way around. Not over the deep longer term.
Not true. Culture is built, at least in part, on previous culture. It is almost impossible to wipe out the past and start again.
Saying that culture is not, ultimately, structurally dependent on economics and geology/biology is like saying poetry is not dependent on the biological, language-ready, underpinnings of the human brain and voice box. Sure, if you take those two things away, poetry could conceivably carry on for a while by living off past forms. But, without its underlying material foundations, it would not survive into the long term.
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

Little John wrote:
UndercoverElephant wrote:
Little John wrote:
Culture/politics are built on economics, which is built on biology and geography. It is not built the other way around. Not over the deep longer term.
Not true. Culture is built, at least in part, on previous culture. It is almost impossible to wipe out the past and start again.
Saying that culture is not, ultimately, structurally dependent on economics and geology/biology is like saying poetry is not dependent on the biological, language-ready, underpinnings of the human brain and voice box. Sure, if you take those two things away, poetry could conceivably carry on for a while by living off past forms. But, without its underlying material foundations, it would not survive into the long term.
That is why I said "partly".
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Post by Catweazle »

Perhaps we can make some guesses what the future will look like for the average UK citizen.

Working from home could become more common, now that more employers have seen how productive it can be. This will have a knock-on effect on public transport, private car ownership, sales of smart working clothes and make-up, sandwich bars, city-centre shops and after-work drinkies establishments.

Ever faster broadband speed and greater coverage will mean more leisure activities will take place in the home, parks and historic attractions will become neglected, many people will have given up owning a car so will stay more local if they venture out.

On-line shops will squeeze real shops out, the vast out-of-town shopping centres will decay. Even the charity shops will disappear.

People will spend more money on their homes, regarding them as their whole life-space and pension scheme. More extensions will be built, and garages and sheds will be converted to work spaces. Fences will be stronger and tall.

Some people will head for the country. City / Town life will become too stressful for older Southerners, they'll make tracks for Wales, because Scotland is too cold and Cornwall too expensive.

Grow-Your-Dinner magazine will be the new De Agostini, build your own allotment in weekly installments, first issue £1.99 with free radish seeds. Cupboards all over the UK will gradually fill with unopened seed packets, amongst the half-built Millennium Falcons and Darth Vader helmets.

Sales of new internet-connected exercise bikes will boom, followed shortly by a boom in the sales of used internet-connected exercise bikes. There will be an increase in fly-tipped exercise bikes.

Obesity will increase. Sales of sofas will increase. Online sports clothing stores selling XXXL sized "track suits" will do well.

Gamblers anonymous will expand their call centres, online betting will become the fastest growth sector after home cooked-food delivery services.

New home builds will become smaller than ever, mostly crammed into unused retail, office or factory spaces although building regs will stipulate that the doors must be wider than currently.

Decreasing rainfall will cause a crisis in the South and Midlands. Another valley in Wales will be flooded into a reservoir. Plaid Cymru will demand independence for Wales with increased local support.

People will realize that it's pointless trying to predict the future and give up.
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Post by vtsnowedin »

Sales of new internet-connected exercise bikes will boom, followed shortly by a boom in the sales of used internet-connected exercise bikes. There will be an increase in fly-tipped exercise bikes.
:D :) :lol: :lol:
Highest probability of your predictions.
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