New coronavirus in/from China

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 12 Jun 2020, 15:38

Catweazle wrote:................But the economists have all the power. They're the people actually deciding how much your life is worth.

Unfortunately, Yes. See my post above. It explains why we are in such a mess.

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 12 Jun 2020, 15:48

We have just proved that we can shut down the whole economy for two or three months and everyone still gets to eat, have somewhere to live and can get around enough to do the former important things and shown that our living environment improves.

Surely when we come out of this we should adjust the way the economy works so that we can carry on enjoying some free time and actually live our lives instead of slaving away for however many hours the slave master decides we should work for his (and it is generally a his) benefit. We should be able to ensure that the only people who should lose out in this are the very few super rich people who have, up till now, kept our noses to the grindstone, gradually losing our wealth, to make them multi, many times over, billionaires.

vtsnowedin · Post by **vtsnowedin** » 12 Jun 2020, 16:23

kenneal - lagger wrote: We should be able to ensure that the only people who should lose out in this are the very few super rich people who have, up till now, kept our noses to the grindstone, gradually losing our wealth, to make them multi, many times over, billionaires.

Wealth is not a zero sum game where the wealthy and powerful extract wealth from you to add to their pile. They either provide you with a steady stream of the products you consume and need (ala Walmart) or create new products you find desirable and worth the price such as computers or facebook etc. The recent run up in the stock market made the rich billions but did not cost you or I a penny. We have come a long way from owing your soul to the company store.

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 12 Jun 2020, 16:57

Wealth may not be a zero sum game but ever since the seventies, especially in the US, the wealthy have been getting wealthier and the rest have been getting relatively poorer and, in many cases, absolutely poorer. Much of the wealth that has been created in only inflation so is illusory, although the wealthy in their bubbles don't mind that too much: it's the figure relative to their peers that worries them.

They seem to be losing the fact that we must all be able to buy stuff to make their wealth continue to come in and to have any true value. They are the ones who are bringing the pack of cards down but they are mostly too stupid or cocooned or both to see what is happening.

vtsnowedin · Post by **vtsnowedin** » 12 Jun 2020, 18:01

kenneal - lagger wrote:Wealth may not be a zero sum game but ever since the seventies, especially in the US, the wealthy have been getting wealthier and the rest have been getting relatively poorer and, in many cases, absolutely poorer. Much of the wealth that has been created in only inflation so is illusory, although the wealthy in their bubbles don't mind that too much: it's the figure relative to their peers that worries them.

They seem to be losing the fact that we must all be able to buy stuff to make their wealth continue to come in and to have any true value. They are the ones who are bringing the pack of cards down but they are mostly too stupid or cocooned or both to see what is happening.

Having started my work career in 1975 the only people I have seen getting relatively poorer are those that lost jobs due to NAFTA with most of us gaining wealth if any discipline was applied to day to day spending. The house with three car garage with two vehicles including a 4X4 truck to pull the boat or camper has become commonplace but was a rare thing while I was growing up in the 60s. You and I are communicating on computers that in 1970 would have filled a five story building and now fit in you pocket or on your desk top.

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 12 Jun 2020, 20:04

Stuff has got a lot cheaper, housing has got a lot more expensive, wages have kept up with inflation and hours for some have got longer so many people are not a lot better off and many are a lot worse off.

ReserveGrowthRulz · Post by **ReserveGrowthRulz** » 12 Jun 2020, 20:38

kenneal - lagger wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:
Catweazle wrote: It's a fine balance, which the worlds top medical brains are working on every day.
.
Not fine or balanced at all and the medical brains all flunked economics.
And what price economics when it claims that we can and should have perpetual growth in a finite environment?

Strawman nonsense.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 13 Jun 2020, 00:00

Why is this person still posting here? We literally have somebody claiming that mainstream economics takes account of the impossibility of endless growth, when every other person posting on this board knows that it does not.

He's a troll. He's here to mislead people.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 13 Jun 2020, 02:15

I agree UE. It's ridiculous.

ReserveGrowthRulz · Post by **ReserveGrowthRulz** » 13 Jun 2020, 03:54

UndercoverElephant wrote:Why is this person still posting here? We literally have somebody claiming that mainstream economics takes account of the impossibility of endless growth, when every other person posting on this board knows that it does not.

ReserveGrowthRulz · Post by **ReserveGrowthRulz** » 13 Jun 2020, 03:55

Little John wrote:I agree UE. It's ridiculous.

Pipe down plagiarist.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 13 Jun 2020, 09:10

ReserveGrowthRulz wrote:
UndercoverElephant wrote:Why is this person still posting here? We literally have somebody claiming that mainstream economics takes account of the impossibility of endless growth, when every other person posting on this board knows that it does not.
Same as peak oil.

No, it isn't the same as peak oil.

I am not going to engage with you. As far as I am concerned, you should be banned from posting here. You do not accept the basic premise of the board. The world is full of people who think like you. This is a space for discussion without having to go back and continually debunk your sort of nonsense.

stumuz1 · Post by **stumuz1** » 13 Jun 2020, 10:01

vtsnowedin wrote:
Wealth is not a zero sum game where the wealthy and powerful extract wealth from you to add to their pile.

Yes it is. Have a quick read of Das Kapitol, that is its purpose.

vtsnowedin wrote: They either provide you with a steady stream of the products you consume and need .

Really? Take a look at peak insanity that was on sale in the US yesterday.

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/hertz ... y-offering

Yes, you can buy shares in a newly bankrupt company with freshly printed Dollars.

vtsnowedin wrote: The recent run up in the stock market made the rich billions but did not cost you or I a penny. We have come a long way from owing your soul to the company store.

Vt, the ' run up in the stock market' was made possible by the diminution in the value of the Dollar in your savings account. Your future purchasing power has been eroded. You have had your ability to buy real resources (not theoretical resources) stolen from you by the Fed.

stumuz1 · Post by **stumuz1** » 13 Jun 2020, 10:32

Case in point.

Five years ago I bought a new company headquarters. Sounds good.

However, since 2007 and because of limits to growth/peak oil, my little law firm has had its office in one of my fields.

Now the office was getting a bit small, new IT meant we needed faster internet speed, larger and better pixel screens for remote auditing, darker booths for coding etc.

So, we invested in a sooper dooper Swedish log cabin with all the bells and whistles.

Final cost Â£10.470 in 2015 pounds

If I was to buy the exact same logcabin today, Â£21.979 in 2020 pounds.

Itâ€™s the same slow cold grown wood, the same double glazing, the same foundations.

The only thing that has changed is the Bank of England debased the pound by printing more of them. So the Swedes quite rightly said we need more of your pounds for the same amount of wood.

Printing money steals from your future.

Catweazle · Post by **Catweazle** » 13 Jun 2020, 10:37

stumuz1 wrote: Vt, the ' run up in the stock market' was made possible by the diminution in the value of the Dollar in your savings account. Your future purchasing power has been eroded. You have had your ability to buy real resources (not theoretical resources) stolen from you by the Fed.

There it is, in a nut shell.