New coronavirus in/from China

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 18 Apr 2020, 19:12

adam2 wrote:.................My friends in North Wales have a very considerable acreage of poor land, historically only used for sheep grazing.
....................

Much of this sort of poor high land will have to be reforested and rewilded in order to reduce flooding in our towns and cities further down stream. I know a fellow CAT Environment Studies MSc graduate and Welsh hill farmer who is up in arms about this suggestion, especially as it is coming from among others, CAT itself. There will be a lot of resistance to the changes required to address the effects of climate change which is probably why it will take a few more crises to get anything sensible done about climate change.

Catweazle · Post by **Catweazle** » 18 Apr 2020, 19:56

kenneal - lagger wrote: Have you not heard of that quaint old practice in farming called crop rotation?

Of course I have, I was illustrating that much land you see sheep on is suitable for crops. Much of that land had been used for just sheep and cattle for decades, before market forces caused the farmers to diversify.The landowner next to my place, who owns 400 acres that has been in his family for four generations bought his first combined harvester less than 10 years ago. Last year, for the first time in the 8 years I've lived here, possibly the first time ever, local farmers laid rows of plastic down in spring and grew maize. They've done it again this year.

vtsnowedin · Post by **vtsnowedin** » 18 Apr 2020, 21:14

Catweazle wrote:
kenneal - lagger wrote: Have you not heard of that quaint old practice in farming called crop rotation?
Of course I have, I was illustrating that much land you see sheep on is suitable for crops. Much of that land had been used for just sheep and cattle for decades, before market forces caused the farmers to diversify.The landowner next to my place, who owns 400 acres that has been in his family for four generations bought his first combined harvester less than 10 years ago. Last year, for the first time in the 8 years I've lived here, possibly the first time ever, local farmers laid rows of plastic down in spring and grew maize. They've done it again this year.

I don't know why they need plastic to grow maze. The Indians didn't have any after all. Perhaps over sweet corn to get it to market early in the season , clear plastic in that case.

vtsnowedin · Post by **vtsnowedin** » 18 Apr 2020, 21:24

kenneal - lagger wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:.................It is after al a loan we will have to pay back one way or the other. .........
The only reason it is a loan is because of the control that the banks have over government. Why on earth should a government go to a bank for a loan when the bank doesn't have that money to loan. The money is magicked up by the bank and the bank charges interest on that money it didn't have and couldn't have until the government asked for a loan. The government should just magic up the money itself and wave two fingers at the *ankers.

OK, the *ankers didn't cause this crisis but they caused the 2008 crisis and then made a lot of money out of it while Joe and Jo Public paid through the nose. The same will happen again if we let it and Trump is in the lead in making it happen. Our government are doing their best to cover Joe Public in order to keep the economy going after the crisis is over. They are paying 80% wages, have stopped evictions for non payment of rent and mortgage and given holidays on those payments. Trump is looking after himself and his mates while allowing Joe Public to go to hell in a handcart.

No here the government is acting as it's own banker, just sending out checks to people and having the fed buy up government bonds to cover it. Those bonds will eventually have to be paid back by taxes or more likely by inflation.

They are paying 80% wages, have stopped evictions for non payment of rent and mortgage and given holidays on those payments.

Trump is doing all of that and more. We have our $2400, My sister -in-law is getting unemployment $600 a week higher then the normal amount and got a check for $2700 (Her and three children under 16). Small business loans have gone out so fast they ran out of funny money and need to pass a new bill.
But both in the US and in the UK it doesn't cover half the true cost of shutting down the economy .

Post by **clv101** » 18 Apr 2020, 22:07

Looking beyond the direct health impacts - there's a HUGE question over the (global) economy. The Q2 downturn is epic, can it, will it rebound? How fast? If not, then we're looking at pretty serious ramifications for most (?) people on the planet.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 18 Apr 2020, 22:21

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... SApp_Other

Just imagine they can't make a vaccine work.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 18 Apr 2020, 22:28

I think that the major world powers made a deal. And that deal was to shut down their economies to contain this virus simultaneously even though that would wreak terrible havoc on those same economies. The reason they made this agreement was because, firstly, if they did not try and contain it the mountain of corpses that would ensue would lead to revolutions and them quite possibly hanging from lamp-posts. Secondly, by locking down simultaneously, no one economy would be advantaged or disadvantaged over the others in terms of the damage done.

But, this agreement will not last. At some point, someone is going to break ranks and try and get in their recovery earlier than the others in order to gain an economic advantage. I reckon that is what Trump is playing at.

Post by **clv101** » 18 Apr 2020, 22:34

Little John wrote:I think that the major world powers made a deal.

This is possible - it will certainly have been discussed behind the scenes, between some parties. But given there wasn't even any significant collective response within the EU, it's hard to seem much cooperation further afield.

Little John wrote:I reckon that is what Trump is playing at.

Then he's screwed up, early recovery and the 'first mover' advantage needed early, proactive response. If anyone's going to see that economic advantage it's China, not the US.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 18 Apr 2020, 22:48

clv101 wrote:Looking beyond the direct health impacts - there's a HUGE question over the (global) economy. The Q2 downturn is epic, can it, will it rebound? How fast?

Not very quickly at all. The best case scenario is a vaccine in the autumn, unless there's a lucky breakthrough with treatment options. Even if that happens, we're looking at an economic shock at least as bad as the Great Depression.

There's nothing the government can do to prevent this now, because even if they told everybody they can go back to normal, half the population will continue social distancing because they're personally fearful of being infected.

But what if a vaccine is still proving elusive two years from now?

Economies can be rebuilt after severe shocks, but they can't be rebuilt while the shock is still ongoing. We can't redesign a society so mass events and family gatherings can't take place anymore.

If not, then we're looking at pretty serious ramifications for most (?) people on the planet.

Yes, although this crisis has the potential to open a lot of people's eyes to the way the world actually works, which could have beneficial effects.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 18 Apr 2020, 22:56

Little John wrote:I think that the major world powers made a deal. And that deal was to shut down their economies to contain this virus simultaneously even though that would wreak terrible havoc on those same economies. The reason they made this agreement was because, firstly, if they did not try and contain it the mountain of corpses that would ensue would lead to revolutions and them quite possibly hanging from lamp-posts. Secondly, by locking down simultaneously, no one economy would be advantaged or disadvantaged over the others in terms of the damage done.

But, this agreement will not last. At some point, someone is going to break ranks and try and get in their recovery earlier than the others in order to gain an economic advantage. I reckon that is what Trump is playing at.

I very much doubt there was any such deal. Looks to me like everybody has been playing their own strategy, and it is not at all clear whose will work the best.

ReserveGrowthRulz · Post by **ReserveGrowthRulz** » 18 Apr 2020, 23:17

Little John wrote:I think that the major world powers made a deal.

Oh brother.

Of course..it must be a conspiracy....that is the only way pandemics happen...governments have to conspire to make it so...

RenewableCandy · Post by **RenewableCandy** » 18 Apr 2020, 23:24

Has anyone here actually *had* the virus?

I spent about a week earlier this month being ill in a manner that even I wasn't used to - no cough, but a temperature and agonising sinus pain. I still feel a bit weak, even after nearly a month. A bunch of people I know (coincidentally, all girlies) have also had the mild temp/sinus-pain thing (these are both listed in the List of Symptoms). The only male I know who's had it had the full dry cough etc like you hear about in the news.

So now of course I could really do with a test to make sure I don't have to worry any more...

Post by **clv101** » 19 Apr 2020, 00:01

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news ... -hq3b9tlgh

Is this one of the most damning articles ever written about the British government? In The Times, no less. Can a charge of criminal negligence be brought against members of the cabinet?

This is what I mean by incompetence. The day *before* that COBRA meeting was my birthday, we had a social gathering, where many of my friends learned about the potential threat of virus they hadn't heard of. And the government's line, nothing to see here, low risk etc.

vtsnowedin · Post by **vtsnowedin** » 19 Apr 2020, 00:07

RenewableCandy wrote:Has anyone here actually *had* the virus?

I spent about a week earlier this month being ill in a manner that even I wasn't used to - no cough, but a temperature and agonising sinus pain. I still feel a bit weak, even after nearly a month. A bunch of people I know (coincidentally, all girlies) have also had the mild temp/sinus-pain thing (these are both listed in the List of Symptoms). The only male I know who's had it had the full dry cough etc like you hear about in the news.

So now of course I could really do with a test to make sure I don't have to worry any more...

I don't know. I had the typical make dry cough and fever symptoms but can't rule out just regular flu. The wife had milder and shorter symptoms but had had a flu shot which I had not. I will get tested as soon as available for all comers but that is still a good time from now.

BritDownUnder · Post by **BritDownUnder** » 19 Apr 2020, 00:28

RenewableCandy wrote:Has anyone here actually *had* the virus?

I spent about a week earlier this month being ill in a manner that even I wasn't used to - no cough, but a temperature and agonising sinus pain. I still feel a bit weak, even after nearly a month. A bunch of people I know (coincidentally, all girlies) have also had the mild temp/sinus-pain thing (these are both listed in the List of Symptoms). The only male I know who's had it had the full dry cough etc like you hear about in the news.

So now of course I could really do with a test to make sure I don't have to worry any more...

About a week ago, after working outside one day clearing out a lot of dirty rat infested materials without a mask I suddenly felt very tired the following morning and went to bed. A fever and splitting headache came on but no sore throat or cough. After a day in bed it subsided but the headaches have just about disappeared after one week.

Looking at the symptoms it is more likely Weil's disease that I had. Nasty headache though.