New coronavirus in/from China

[kenneal - lagger]

................I agree with all of that. However, you have forgotten that most people are morons who can barely tie their shoelaces let alone understand economics.

You have also forgotten that many economists are morons who don't understand the environment/nature. And the environment/nature will win out in the end even if it takes another couple of hundred years. But then economists are only worried about the here and now.

[Vortex2]

I really don't know how many times this needs to be said before it sinks in.

The UK has to import getting on for sixty percent of its food. Of the less than 50% that it produces, this is only achieved on the back of imported fertilizers and fuel.

The UK is a capitalist economy that has to purchase those imports with capitalist money off other capitalist exporters. If this country's economy completely collapses and has no money or, just as bad, its money becomes worthless, we will have starvation in this country.

Not everyone ... if you have a viable business or desirable skills you will be fine.

Unless the lockdown has just killed a business that was viable.

So?

There will be new opportunities too.

Anyway, I suspect that this crisis will clear away a lot of the 'living dead' and 'life style' businesses.

Perhaps many who have been 'blocked' by the status quo will now have a chance to bloom?

[Vortex2]

I really don't know how many times this needs to be said before it sinks in.

The UK has to import getting on for sixty percent of its food. Of the less than 50% that it produces, this is only achieved on the back of imported fertilizers and fuel.

The UK is a capitalist economy that has to purchase those imports with capitalist money off other capitalist exporters. If this country's economy completely collapses and has no money or, just as bad, its money becomes worthless, we will have starvation in this country.

Even 'broken' countries have a proportion of their economy functioning normally.

I doubt we will ever become a Venezuela.

[kenneal - lagger]

I really don't know how many times this needs to be said before it sinks in.

The UK has to import getting on for sixty percent of its food. Of the less than 50% that it produces, this is only achieved on the back of imported fertilizers and fuel.

The UK is a capitalist economy that has to purchase those imports with capitalist money off other capitalist exporters. If this country's economy completely collapses and has no money or, just as bad, its money becomes worthless, we will have starvation in this country.

Not everyone ... if you have a viable business or desirable skills you will be fine.

The Plague changed the way that society worked when it swept through Europe and the Britain. A shortage of food due to a shortage of labour increased the value of that labour and the cost of the food produced. A shortage of food in this country would turn the payment for work in this country on its head as well as bumping the cost of food up to its proper value to us all. The cost, at the moment, doesn't relate to the value of food to us so we don't value the food nor the people who produce it.

If this current plague changes societies values it will be worth the sacrifice of those who died because we badly need to change how society works. There has been a drastic change already with governments putting lives over the economy, perhaps less so in the US, but we need to carry this change forward into a different attitude to the environment.

From that point of view the longer this virus hangs around the better because if people don't die because of the virus they will die when the environmental changes caused by global warming really hit the world in a few years/ decades time. We have been given a chance to change and we must grasp it with both hands.

[kenneal - lagger]

..................... Fine for you but what about those living in rental housing working a city job?

They are at home being paid 80% of their wage by the government with a moratorium on evictions if rent can't be paid. Oh! The evils of socialism!! They might find it difficult to find a nice place to exercise though as many of the city parks have been closed and it's difficult to grow much food on a flat balcony, if you are lucky enough to have one.

And how long do you think that is going to last in a wrecked economy or, more's the point, how much do you think that 80% of wages is going to be worth in a wrecked economy with rampant inflation?

If the economy was wrecked to that extent I would suspect that we would go over to a wartime regime of rationing of food provision. As we waste a very big proportion of the food produced in the UK and given that many people are consuming, rather than eating, much more than they need we could feed ourselves a very much reduced calorie intake and get by for a couple of years as we ramped up production. With a steady population and no immigration we could soon feed ourselves although chocolate might be more than a bit difficult to come across!

Cuba suffered a massive loss of the food that they imported and a equally massive loss of income when Russia went bust and they manged to find enough food to feed themselves and they did it organically and by hand cultivation. We could do the same.

[boisdevie]

They are at home being paid 80% of their wage by the government with a moratorium on evictions if rent can't be paid. Oh! The evils of socialism!! They might find it difficult to find a nice place to exercise though as many of the city parks have been closed and it's difficult to grow much food on a flat balcony, if you are lucky enough to have one.

And how long do you think that is going to last in a wrecked economy or, more's the point, how much do you think that 80% of wages is going to be worth in a wrecked economy with rampant inflation?

If the economy was wrecked to that extent I would suspect that we would go over to a wartime regime of rationing of food provision. As we waste a very big proportion of the food produced in the UK and given that many people are consuming, rather than eating, much more than they need we could feed ourselves a very much reduced calorie intake and get by for a couple of years as we ramped up production. With a steady population and no immigration we could soon feed ourselves although chocolate might be more than a bit difficult to come across!

Cuba suffered a massive loss of the food that they imported and a equally massive loss of income when Russia went bust and they manged to find enough food to feed themselves and they did it organically and by hand cultivation. We could do the same.

You do realise that our population density is about double that of Cuba? We couldn't even feed ourselves in WW2.

[eatyourveg]

'Coronavirus: Only 9% of Britons want life to return to 'normal' once lockdown is over
People have noticed significant changes during the lockdown, including cleaner air, more wildlife and stronger communities.'

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus- ... gGxk5UU0xk


I was wondering at what point this sort of article would appear. I imagine Mike Ashley, Jeff Bezos et al are commissioning a report that will say exactly the opposite right now

[vtsnowedin]

I really don't know how many times this needs to be said before it sinks in.

The UK has to import getting on for sixty percent of its food. Of the less than 50% that it produces, this is only done on the back of imported fertilizers and fuel.

The UK is a capitalist economy that has to purchase those imports with capitalist money of other capitalist exporters. If this country's economy completely collapses and has no money or, just as bad, it's money becomes worthless, we will have starvation in this country.

I agree with all of that. However, you have forgotten that most people are morons who can barely tie their shoelaces let alone understand economics.

A few days without adequate food will be a great economics teacher. Even those with velcro shoes can learn lessons on an empty stomach.

[vtsnowedin]

..................... Fine for you but what about those living in rental housing working a city job?

They are at home being paid 80% of their wage by the government with a moratorium on evictions if rent can't be paid. Oh! The evils of socialism!! They might find it difficult to find a nice place to exercise though as many of the city parks have been closed and it's difficult to grow much food on a flat balcony, if you are lucky enough to have one.

Just how long do you think that can go on? Like Maggy said.' sooner or later the socialist run out of other peoples money'.

[stumuz1]

We couldn't even feed ourselves in WW2.

We could and we did.

A beautiful theory is always spoilt by an ugly fact

[vtsnowedin]

.................... We have deaths every day from the medical effects of Covid and if we don't act soon we will have even more deaths every day from the economic crash.

That, to a great extent, is because of the political system that you have chosen to support. If the Christian Right in the US were a bit more Christian than Right you wouldn't be looking at quite so many deaths from economic problems.

Religion has nothing to due with the US economy. This crash is a direct result of having half the workforce ordered to stay home and not work. Arabs staying home or Russians or Buddhists etc. would all have the same effect.

[Vortex2]

We couldn't even feed ourselves in WW2.

We could and we did.

A beautiful theory is always spoilt by an ugly fact

At the start of the war I think we imported 60% of our food.

[stumuz1]

We couldn't even feed ourselves in WW2.

We could and we did.

A beautiful theory is always spoilt by an ugly fact

At the start of the war I think we imported 60% of our food.

No doubt. Moet, exotic fruits, most wines, continental lagers, corned beef, were all very popular.

[vtsnowedin]

We couldn't even feed ourselves in WW2.

We could and we did.

A beautiful theory is always spoilt by an ugly fact

How about these facts?

As a small island country, the United Kingdom was highly dependent on imported goods. Britain required more than a million tons of imported material per week in order to survive and fight. In essence, the Battle of the Atlantic involved a tonnage war: the Allied struggle to supply Britain and the Axis attempt to stem the flow of merchant shipping that enabled Britain to keep fighting. From 1942 onward the Axis also sought to prevent the build-up of Allied supplies and equipment in the British Isles in preparation for the invasion of occupied Europe. The defeat of the U-boat threat was a prerequisite for pushing back the Axis in Western Europe. The outcome of the battle was a strategic victory for the Allies—the German blockade failed—but at great cost: 3,500 merchant ships and 175 warships were sunk in the Atlantic for the loss of 783 U-boats (the majority of them Type VII submarines) and 47 German surface warships, including 4 battleships (Bismarck, Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, and Tirpitz), 9 cruisers, 7 raiders, and 27 destroyers. Of the U-boats, 519 were sunk by British, Canadian, or other allied forces, while 175 were destroyed by American forces; 15 were destroyed by the Soviets and 73 were scuttled by their crews before the end of the war for various reasons.[5]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of ... each_month

[stumuz1]

Yes, we were totally reliant on the French for Moet.

Carrots we did not import.

From anywhere.