What guns to buy? and related posts.

vtsnowedin · Post by **vtsnowedin** » 15 Apr 2020, 13:28

Mark wrote:
ReserveGrowthRulz wrote:And guns apparently stopped 2.5 million crimes a year.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/count ... y-country/
US Crime Index - 46.73
UK Crime Index - 43.64

Guns don't stop any crime.
Gun ownership is the problem, not the solution.

You can't draw that conclusion from those two numbers. Crime rates are effected by several factors like the age of the population and employment rates and poverty levels. I certainly would not give up private ownership of guns in America to just gain two points on the crime rate.

Mark · Post by **Mark** » 15 Apr 2020, 14:45

vtsnowedin wrote:
Mark wrote:
ReserveGrowthRulz wrote:And guns apparently stopped 2.5 million crimes a year.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/count ... y-country/
US Crime Index - 46.73
UK Crime Index - 43.64

Guns don't stop any crime.
Gun ownership is the problem, not the solution.
You can't draw that conclusion from those two numbers. Crime rates are effected by several factors like the age of the population and employment rates and poverty levels. I certainly would not give up private ownership of guns in America to just gain two points on the crime rate.

RGR's claim was that guns stopped 2.5 million crimes per year.
If that was true, the US should be near the bottom of crime index ?
In fact, you are similar to us, but with more than 15,000 bodies in the morgue....

ReserveGrowthRulz · Post by **ReserveGrowthRulz** » 15 Apr 2020, 16:40

Catweazle wrote:Now, I know that RGRis just playing with us.

The irony is Magnum sized.

ReserveGrowthRulz · Post by **ReserveGrowthRulz** » 15 Apr 2020, 16:49

Mark wrote: Guns don't stop any crime.

They do, and I have used one myself, personally, to do just that.

ReserveGrowthRulz · Post by **ReserveGrowthRulz** » 15 Apr 2020, 17:01

vtsnowedin wrote: I certainly would not give up private ownership of guns in America to just gain two points on the crime rate.

Interesting point.

ReserveGrowthRulz · Post by **ReserveGrowthRulz** » 15 Apr 2020, 17:14

Mark wrote: RGR's claim was that guns stopped 2.5 million crimes per year.

I certainly provided the reference, yes.

vtsnowedin · Post by **vtsnowedin** » 15 Apr 2020, 18:03

Mark wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:
Mark wrote: https://worldpopulationreview.com/count ... y-country/
US Crime Index - 46.73
UK Crime Index - 43.64

Guns don't stop any crime.
Gun ownership is the problem, not the solution.
You can't draw that conclusion from those two numbers. Crime rates are effected by several factors like the age of the population and employment rates and poverty levels. I certainly would not give up private ownership of guns in America to just gain two points on the crime rate.
RGR's claim was that guns stopped 2.5 million crimes per year.
If that was true, the US should be near the bottom of crime index ?
In fact, you are similar to us, but with more than 15,000 bodies in the morgue....

I think you are confusing total crimes and violent crimes. Property crime outpaces violent by about six to one And RGR's figure includes both. Your link references violent crimes only and doesn't seem to match anybody else's statistics.

vtsnowedin · Post by **vtsnowedin** » 15 Apr 2020, 18:07

ReserveGrowthRulz wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote: I certainly would not give up private ownership of guns in America to just gain two points on the crime rate.
Interesting point.

What would you give up private ownership of guns for, in America? I'm racking my brain, and having a difficult time coming up with one.

I find it difficult to get around the basics of Sam Colt's equalization theorem.

That I would not give up my gun rights for a drop in crime rate does not imply that there is something I would give them up for.

ReserveGrowthRulz · Post by **ReserveGrowthRulz** » 15 Apr 2020, 18:30

vtsnowedin wrote:
ReserveGrowthRulz wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote: I certainly would not give up private ownership of guns in America to just gain two points on the crime rate.
Interesting point.

What would you give up private ownership of guns for, in America? I'm racking my brain, and having a difficult time coming up with one.

I find it difficult to get around the basics of Sam Colt's equalization theorem.
That I would not give up my gun rights for a drop in crime rate does not imply that there is something I would give them up for.

I certainly understand.

Mark · Post by **Mark** » 15 Apr 2020, 21:40

ReserveGrowthRulz wrote:
Mark wrote: Guns don't stop any crime.
They do, and I have used one myself, personally, to do just that. When I was a teenager no less.

You give limited details, but let me guess.
I can picture an old lady/grocery store/petrol station being robbed, when our teenage hero, fresh from watching Dirty Harry, comes round the corner and blasts the punk into next week ?

Even if this wasn't your scenario, ones like it play out often enough.
The shooter makes an instant judgement on the situation - who says it's the correct one ?
What gives that person the right to play God and maim/kill somebody else ?
For me, the shooter has committed GBH/murder, and should go to jail for a very very long time.

Thank goodness for our gun laws and our (relatively) sane Police Force.
You're more than welcome to live in Dodge City.

ReserveGrowthRulz · Post by **ReserveGrowthRulz** » 15 Apr 2020, 23:06

Mark wrote:
ReserveGrowthRulz wrote:
Mark wrote: Guns don't stop any crime.
They do, and I have used one myself, personally, to do just that. When I was a teenager no less.
You give limited details, but let me guess.
I can picture an old lady/grocery store/petrol station being robbed, when our teenage hero, fresh from watching Dirty Harry, comes round the corner and blasts the punk into next week ?

Imagine that, an idea as ill-informed as as your understanding of American gun laws, usage and crime and stuff!

Mark · Post by **Mark** » 16 Apr 2020, 11:00

ReserveGrowthRulz wrote:No need to shoot. The only instant judgement I had to make that night was whether or not I was willing to pull the trigger if they decided to keep plundering or come after me. They decided to stop plundering, and didn't come after me, so this was good! And incidentally fell into exactly the category I mentioned earlier that you didn't refute...guns stop crime...and the events are measured in the millions.

Rubbish - your house was still burgled (crime not prevented)
OK, you say you didn't shoot, is that the crime that was prevented ?
If you had shot, that would have been an additional crime committed.
If I was burgling houses in the US, I'd assume the householder was armed and might shoot me, so I'd carry one too - the resulting shoot-out would result in lots of crimes being committed.

If your story is true, the only conclusion that I draw is that you were very lucky.

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 16 Apr 2020, 11:11

Australia and a number of other countries have bought in laws restricting gun ownership and seen the number of deaths by shooting plummet without an increase in other crimes. It would seem that in Australia, at least, the widespread ownership of guns didn't affect the petty crime rate but did increase the death rate.

People who have a legitimate use for a gun can still get hold of one in Australia and in the UK but our death rates by shooting are a fraction of those in the US and neither are our crime rates any higher because of the lack of general ownership of guns.

We keep our guns securely locked away in the UK and if I heard someone breaking in at night by the time I had got up, found the keys to my gun cabinet, got to the cabinet, unlocked it, got the gun out, unlocked the ammunition box, got the ammunition out and loaded the gun the intruder would probably have shat himself because of my movement and run away anyway. I, and the vast majority of people in the UK, don't feel the need to have a gun or baseball bat/pickax handle to hand at night because the likelihood of being burgled is so low it doesn't enter our minds.

The only time that we think anything about being armed is when there is another mass murder in the US announced on the news and we then thank god for our gun laws. I know that RGR and VT won't agree with this but then we, most of us in the UK, question their sanity and level of brain washing just as much as they question ours. It is a pointless debate as we are all brain washed in our own ways to our self satisfaction but evidence of death rates seem to have little effect on some of our thinking.

ReserveGrowthRulz · Post by **ReserveGrowthRulz** » 16 Apr 2020, 14:12

Mark wrote:
ReserveGrowthRulz wrote:No need to shoot. The only instant judgement I had to make that night was whether or not I was willing to pull the trigger if they decided to keep plundering or come after me. They decided to stop plundering, and didn't come after me, so this was good! And incidentally fell into exactly the category I mentioned earlier that you didn't refute...guns stop crime...and the events are measured in the millions.
Rubbish - your house was still burgled (crime not prevented)

Oh..sure...they broke in. And then walked out without taking anything...crime prevented. Duh.

ReserveGrowthRulz · Post by **ReserveGrowthRulz** » 16 Apr 2020, 14:25

kenneal - lagger wrote: People who have a legitimate use for a gun can still get hold of one in Australia and in the UK but our death rates by shooting are a fraction of those in the US and neither are our crime rates any higher because of the lack of general ownership of guns.

I don't believe it is an unreasonable idea, that with a major restriction on gun ownership, that gun related crimes go down.