New coronavirus in/from China

Forum for general discussion of Peak Oil / Oil depletion; also covering related subjects

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stumuz1
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Location: Anglesey

Post by stumuz1 »

UndercoverElephant wrote:
Little John wrote:So, if we assume that the vast majority of people who die will be over 70 and a large portion of these will be over 80, then we may further assume that, for the majority of Covid-19 deaths, lives will have been shortened by around 0-10 years and I'd lay money a good sized sub portion of those will have been in the 0-1 year bracket.

In other words, I am saying that we appear to be destroying our economy in order to give some people only a few extra months or perhaps a few extra years than they were due anyway. It's an incredibly harsh thing to put it in those terms. But, there it is. There are many more lives that will be blighted for decades to come on the back of this. That is also an incredibly harsh thing.

There are no easy moral outcomes to this.
Since when did you care about "our economy"?

Who is this "our"?
Remember the film 'the big short' about the GFC?

Remember the quote in the film from the burnt out trader who now runs a seed bank?

In the US, 40,000 people die when unemployment goes up by 1%

Believe me, the economy matters.
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Vortex2
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Post by Vortex2 »

This virus has proved quite interesting

* It shows how ill prepared we were for a pandemic;

* It shows us how many people regard themselves as 'rational exceptions' to health care restrictions;

* It shows us how vital the Internet infrastructure is during a pandemic;

* It shows us how national needs over-rule global needs;

* It shows that some people are happy to throw big sections of the population under the bus in order to keep the economy running;

* It shows that globalisation can fail;

* It shows us the major adverse effects of panic buying;

* It shows us that if our politicians all work physically close together then they can all be hit by a virus at the same time;

* It has given the economy a severe shake - hopefully shaking out the telephone sanitisers and other no hopers;

* It has shown that home working is more viable than many have thought;

* It shows how pleasant the environment can be without millions of cars pumping filth into the air;

* It has shown than having one country (today China) as your single source for most products was an error;

* It shows that vaccine development and test development and mass production are vital;

When the smoke clears I suspect that we will ensure that we are very ready for the next pandemic : the PPE stocks will be there, and we should expect very heavy handed policies to control panic buying and lockdown regulations.
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Vortex2
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Post by Vortex2 »

The UK Business Loan Scheme ...

The 80%-guaranteed-by-government business loan scheme has only a 1.4% success rate for applications. (They have had around 300,000 applications so far)

I have just reviewed the government rules for this loan ... it's practically impossible to meet their criteria.

You must be:
* Requesting funding of more than £25,000

* Requiring funding due to the coronavirus pandemic

* A small or medium-sized enterprise with a group turnover of less than £45m

* Borrowing less than £5m in total (including any existing Enterprise Finance Guarantee loans), for a maximum of 6 years.
Your loan should be:
* Less than twice your annual wage bill for 2019 or the last available year, or;

* Less than a quarter of your 2019 total turnover
or;

* Less than you’d need to cover your regular expenses over the next 18 months (12 months if you employ more than 250 people).
Also you need to provide:
* Financial Accounts – last 3 years (if sole trader or partnership – Tax returns SA302)

* Personal income and expenditure document completed for all directors/shareholders of the business

An offer of support will be dependent upon a full credit assessment and further checks to confirm scheme eligibility.
These rules essentially block smaller companies from applying.

In reality you need to be an ultra low risk applicant - the banks will only lend you an umbrella when it's sunny.
cubes
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Location: Norfolk

Post by cubes »

The last bit is pretty standard for business loans though.

The only bit I Have any issues with is the second part. Nowhere with general guidance (even the british business bank) has stated any of that at all.

edit: looking on Lloyds site I can see it now. Cheeky f**kers, not putting it on the BB Bank site.
eatyourveg
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Location: uk

Post by eatyourveg »

With this talk of what comes next, here is something interesting and sane:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... us-economy
"Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools". Douglas Bader.
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Vortex2
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Location: In a Midlands field

Post by Vortex2 »

cubes wrote:The last bit is pretty standard for business loans though.

The only bit I Have any issues with is the second part. Nowhere with general guidance (even the british business bank) has stated any of that at all.

edit: looking on Lloyds site I can see it now. Cheeky f**kers, not putting it on the BB Bank site.
Just checked .... Lloyds is my bank ... and yes they have added that restrictive middle part to the government's rules ... making it look like it's part of the government regulations.

Very naughty.
eatyourveg
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Joined: 15 Jul 2007, 17:02
Location: uk

Post by eatyourveg »

Vortex2 wrote:The UK Business Loan Scheme ...

The 80%-guaranteed-by-government business loan scheme has only a 1.4% success rate for applications. (They have had around 300,000 applications so far)

I have just reviewed the government rules for this loan ... it's practically impossible to meet their criteria.

You must be:
* Requesting funding of more than £25,000

* Requiring funding due to the coronavirus pandemic

* A small or medium-sized enterprise with a group turnover of less than £45m

* Borrowing less than £5m in total (including any existing Enterprise Finance Guarantee loans), for a maximum of 6 years.
Your loan should be:
* Less than twice your annual wage bill for 2019 or the last available year, or;

* Less than a quarter of your 2019 total turnover
or;

* Less than you’d need to cover your regular expenses over the next 18 months (12 months if you employ more than 250 people).
Also you need to provide:
* Financial Accounts – last 3 years (if sole trader or partnership – Tax returns SA302)

* Personal income and expenditure document completed for all directors/shareholders of the business

An offer of support will be dependent upon a full credit assessment and further checks to confirm scheme eligibility.
These rules essentially block smaller companies from applying.

In reality you need to be an ultra low risk applicant - the banks will only lend you an umbrella when it's sunny.
When all this was announced I thought yeah right, let's see who qualifies. This was a PR exercise, no more.
"Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools". Douglas Bader.
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Mean Mr Mustard II
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Post by Mean Mr Mustard II »

Graun live feed
A hospital trust has said it was forced intervene with Cambridgeshire police after officers stopped staff on their way to work and told them NHS ID cards were insufficient evidence of essential travel.

In its newsletter, seen by the Guardian, bosses at Cambridge University hospitals foundation trust said they had received reports from staff who had been “stopped by the police on their way to work and asked to confirm if their travel was essential.� The newsletter went on:


When staff showed their NHS ID and said they were on their way into or from work, they were advised by the police officers that this was insufficient evidence of essential travel.

Following these reports the Trust has been in discussions with Cambridgeshire Constabulary. It has confirmed it will remind all police officers that such an explanation together with an NHS ID badge is sufficient evidence.
When you're dealing with exponential growth, the time to act is when it feels too early.
eatyourveg
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Location: uk

Post by eatyourveg »

Mean Mr Mustard II wrote:Graun live feed
A hospital trust has said it was forced intervene with Cambridgeshire police after officers stopped staff on their way to work and told them NHS ID cards were insufficient evidence of essential travel.

In its newsletter, seen by the Guardian, bosses at Cambridge University hospitals foundation trust said they had received reports from staff who had been “stopped by the police on their way to work and asked to confirm if their travel was essential.� The newsletter went on:


When staff showed their NHS ID and said they were on their way into or from work, they were advised by the police officers that this was insufficient evidence of essential travel.

Following these reports the Trust has been in discussions with Cambridgeshire Constabulary. It has confirmed it will remind all police officers that such an explanation together with an NHS ID badge is sufficient evidence.
Jesus, the police have to be told that! If the virus is seen as a cull, it could start with idiots and move on to half wits when it's done with those. This proves it is not a bio weapon, it's simply not targetted enough.
"Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools". Douglas Bader.
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Vortex2
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Location: In a Midlands field

Post by Vortex2 »

eatyourveg wrote:
Vortex2 wrote:The UK Business Loan Scheme ...

The 80%-guaranteed-by-government business loan scheme has only a 1.4% success rate for applications. (They have had around 300,000 applications so far)

I have just reviewed the government rules for this loan ... it's practically impossible to meet their criteria.

You must be:
* Requesting funding of more than £25,000

* Requiring funding due to the coronavirus pandemic

* A small or medium-sized enterprise with a group turnover of less than £45m

* Borrowing less than £5m in total (including any existing Enterprise Finance Guarantee loans), for a maximum of 6 years.
Your loan should be:
* Less than twice your annual wage bill for 2019 or the last available year, or;

* Less than a quarter of your 2019 total turnover
or;

* Less than you’d need to cover your regular expenses over the next 18 months (12 months if you employ more than 250 people).
Also you need to provide:
* Financial Accounts – last 3 years (if sole trader or partnership – Tax returns SA302)

* Personal income and expenditure document completed for all directors/shareholders of the business

An offer of support will be dependent upon a full credit assessment and further checks to confirm scheme eligibility.
These rules essentially block smaller companies from applying.

In reality you need to be an ultra low risk applicant - the banks will only lend you an umbrella when it's sunny.
When all this was announced I thought yeah right, let's see who qualifies. This was a PR exercise, no more.
I have just raised a formal complaint about Lloyds with the British Businesses Bank.

Waste of time - but at least I tried.
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Bedrock Barney
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Location: Midlands

Post by Bedrock Barney »

On the subject of bank loans, having run my own business for 15 years, I can vouch for the fact that they (the big banks) only want to lend money when it is about as risk free as possible.

When we first started up, I requested a very reasonable £15,000 loan from my bank to help with IT improvements etc. We got a resounding no.

These days we have a very healthy cash balance and are inundated with the offers of business and personal loans at low interest rates (at least we were up until Covid 19).

Funding Circle also writes to us every other month it seems. They would like to give us lots of money we don't need (again pre Covid 19!! - I suspect the Funding Circle business model will be crumbling in due course).
We demand that reality be altered because we don't like it [� oilslick ]
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Mean Mr Mustard II
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Post by Mean Mr Mustard II »

Waste of time - but at least I tried.
Better to highlight it to journalists, eg Graun?
When you're dealing with exponential growth, the time to act is when it feels too early.
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adam2
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Post by adam2 »

eatyourveg wrote:
Mean Mr Mustard II wrote:Graun live feed
A hospital trust has said it was forced intervene with Cambridgeshire police after officers stopped staff on their way to work and told them NHS ID cards were insufficient evidence of essential travel.

In its newsletter, seen by the Guardian, bosses at Cambridge University hospitals foundation trust said they had received reports from staff who had been “stopped by the police on their way to work and asked to confirm if their travel was essential.� The newsletter went on:


When staff showed their NHS ID and said they were on their way into or from work, they were advised by the police officers that this was insufficient evidence of essential travel.

Following these reports the Trust has been in discussions with Cambridgeshire Constabulary. It has confirmed it will remind all police officers that such an explanation together with an NHS ID badge is sufficient evidence.
Jesus, the police have to be told that! If the virus is seen as a cull, it could start with idiots and move on to half wits when it's done with those. This proves it is not a bio weapon, it's simply not targetted enough.
The police have already had to be told by HM government that
1) People ARE allowed to buy and take home anything sold in shops that are open.
2) That people CAN use their gardens as normal.
3) That exercise is not limited to an hour.
So it is not surprising that they need reminding that NHS staff are allowed to travel to and from work.

I suspect that the police regard the virus as a good opportunity to extend their powers and to invent rules of their own.

I am directly aware of a freight train driver in possession of work ID being told that their journey to work is "not proved essential" and of supermarket staff being told that a company pass is "not sufficient" proof that their work is essential. Perhaps the police were concerned that the supermarket staff might be handling Ester eggs or other such items not approved by the police.
"Installers and owners of emergency diesels must assume that they will have to run for a week or more"
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Post by kenneal - lagger »

Catweazle wrote:I see so much potentially arable land unused in the UK, but it would need intensive labour to make it productive. We don't have the labour in the right places to do it. Add the uncertainties of the climate ( 20+ degrees today, frost predicted on Monday ) and we could be in trouble.
The "potentially" arable land is unused for arable because it is only "potentially" available. It is "unused" because it is low grade land which doesn't produce arable crops in good quantities and the farmer/owner would make a loss if they cultivated it. It is used as grazing land because it produces grass in good quantities as it has always done, ever since the start of farming in the British Isles.

Now whether that grazing land is in agriculture or horseyculture depends on how close it is to an urban area with lots of little, and not so little, girls who enjoy riding and grooming horses. We graziers find it difficult in West Berkshire to get grazing land because the land owners can make two or three times the income by letting the land to horse owners who are not constrained by economics. I do not let my land for horses because I am not constrained by farming economics, I have another income, and I bought the land nearly forty years ago to produce food on in just the current circumstances.

It might be "potentially" horticultural land with very high inputs initially to get it up to grade and then require high labour inputs to keep it there. But then it still wouldn't make any profits because we are accustomed to low food prices and we can, at the moment, import food from areas with higher sunlight/heat levels and lower labour costs.

If we accepted the lower welfare standards for our food that many other countries that we import food from work to we could have more of our meat grown locally. But we impose high welfare standards on our own farmers and then largely buy cheaper low welfare standard food from abroad.

What we need is a majority of the population to say to government that they are concerned by food security and food quality and that they want the government to ensure that we produce most, probably 95%, of our food here. Some things like citrus fruit, coffee and tea and spices we do not have the climate for, at the moment, but we would want to have the facility to replace them with something that could be grown here if TS properly HTF.

But that would imply higher food costs to support higher labour costs and input costs. We have the land to do it if we ate a lot less meat: there have been at least three studies that I know of which show that we can do that. The first is from 1975 and although our population has increased greatly since them the other two are more recent and still show that we can do it. One of those is the Zero Carbon Britain Reports which I have referenced many times before. And the other is one prepared for the government's Committee on Climate Change although I can't find any reference to it on line. I saw a presentation on it at a Climate Conference in London a year or so ago.
Action is the antidote to despair - Joan Baez
boisdevie
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Post by boisdevie »

I live on a narrowboat and often wonder just how many goats could graze the towpaths - thousands and thousands. We could grow a lot more food.
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