New coronavirus in/from China

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clv101
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Post by clv101 »

stumuz1 wrote:Financial consequences of the virus.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... mounting2/
As of this week two-thirds of the Chinese economy remains shut. Over 80pc of its manufacturing industry is closed, rising to 90pc for exporters.
Any last minute 'made in China' purchases?
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

The lockdowns in Wuhan and other Chinese cities cannot continue for much longer. I read a long post on reddit last night - translations of over 20 posts from Chinese people who had no contact with anybody who has the virus, but whose lives are being destroyed. Several taxi drivers who are still having to pay to rent their vehicles, and already lost all the CNY business. But that is just one example. What about all the other small businesses? What if your boiler breaks and you need to hire a plumber to fix it? A a stretch, people can put these things off for a few days. Once it stretches to a couple of weeks then desperation sets in, and any longer than that and people will start fearing the consequences of the lockdown more than they fear the virus.

At what point does the Chinese Communist Party start to lose control?
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Post by mikepepler »

Wow, lots of stuff overnight! That Telegraph article really underlines the impact of the shutdown in China, which really doesn't make sense unless the real number of cases and deaths are more like the ones tencent briefly displayed.

Personally, from a data point of view I'm more interested in tracking the number of cases outside China now, in the hope that the data might be more truthful and thus show the real R0, CFR, etc.

The real truth will be out before long I think, it's impossible to keep things this big locked down forever.
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

That Telegraph article really underlines the impact of the shutdown in China
Can you cut and paste the text? Behind a paywall.
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Post by mikepepler »

UndercoverElephant wrote:Can you cut and paste the text? Behind a paywall.
I've not paid, but with javascript disabled the page showed. Here you go:
The workshop of the world is closed. China is on a total-war footing. The Communist Party has evoked the "spirit of 1937" and mobilised all the instruments of its totalitarian surveillance system to fight both coronavirus, and the truth. Make GDP forecasts if you dare.

As of this week two-thirds of the Chinese economy remains shut. More than 80pc of its manufacturing industry is closed, rising to 90pc for exporters.

The Chinese economy is 17pc of the world economy and deeply integrated into international supply chains. It was just 4.5pc of world GDP during the SARS epidemic 2003, which some like to use as a reassuring template. You cannot shut down China for long these days without shutting down the world.

Wednesday's investor euphoria at reports of two new wonder drugs from Zhejiang University show how badly unhinged the market has become. This is not the way that medical science advances. Nor could these anti-virals possibly be ready, in time and at scale, to avert serious economic upheaval.

The open question is whether the coronavirus shock is enough to abort the fragile economic recovery underway since last summer’s near miss, when frightened central bankers in the US, Europe and 47 other jurisdictions cut rates in a drastic monetary U-turn.

Personally, I think the glacial SARS episode tells us little about the fast-spreading Wuhan virus. The 2019-nCoV variant is more akin to the Spanish Flu pandemic of 1918. It appears to be tracking the 1918 death rate at about 2.3pc (20 times normal winter flu) to the extent that we can believe any figures. There is some evidence that it is nearer 4.9pc in Wuhan.

The difference is that Spanish Flu felled the young, because their immune systems went into overdrive: this virus carries away the old.

There is no global economic safety margin. Both the US Federal Reserve and the European Central Bank have already relaunched quantitative easing - a bizarre thing to do if the US economy is really doing as well as Donald Trump claimed in his State of the Union address. Clearly US strength is a late-cycle illusion. Exhaustion has been masked by both by a blast of monetary stimulus and a fiscal deficit near 5pc of GDP.

In-depth | Coronavirus outbreak
The scale of disruption in China is already staggering. Hyundai, the fifth-biggest global car maker, has been forced to close all its factories at home in Korea for lack of key components. Volkswagen, Toyota, General Motors and Tesla have all downed tools at their Chinese plants, as has Apple’s iPhone supplier Foxconn.

Crude prices have dropped 20pc since early January, that long-ago moment when eight Wuhan doctors were already trying to alert the world to the virus, only to be arrested for “spreading rumours�.

This is the biggest shock to oil markets since the Lehman crisis. The collapse in Chinese transport and refinery demand has cut imports by three million barrels a day; some say four million. This is twice the UK’s North Sea oil output. An embattled OPEC is having to talk about yet further output cuts, a horrible surprise as the perpetual petro-drought grinds on into its sixth year.

“It’s now clear that coronavirus is a serious event risk to the entire world and that financial conditions are tightening very quickly,� said Edward Harrison from Credit Writedowns.

The channel of financial contagion runs from the epidemic through the oil price to a “bear market rout� in the broader energy sector, and from there to overstretched US junk bonds. “High yield is where the rubber hits the road,� he said.

The coronavirus is the sort of Black Swan catalyst that the US Treasury’s Office of Financial Research (OFR) frets about. Its latest stability report said corporate bonds are an accident waiting for such a trigger. The ratio of junk bonds with debt-to-earnings ratios above six has reached 30pc, above the pre-Lehman peak.

The number of investment-grade securities rated BBB or lower has risen fivefold since 2008, many perched just above junk. If fear takes hold there is likely to be a cascade of downgrades and "fallen angels", setting off a fire-sale by bond funds.

A woman cycles in a deserted street in Beijing's central business district
Commodity markets have taken the crisis on the chin because they are instant barometers of actual demand. Equity markets are instead shrugging off the Wuhan virus as media noise, betting that China’s factories will reopen on February 14 or thereabouts as Beijing brings the epidemic under control.

This is a brave assumption and I can only marvel at analysts suggesting that the infection rate may be tailing off based on each day’s official data. Are they aware of the astonishing accounts of Kafkaesque reality in Wuhan, Huanggang, and soon no doubt the 35m-strong megalopolis of Chongqing, where Britain has just closed its consulate?

Are they reading dispatches from Caixin or in the South China Morning Post revealing a desperate shortage of testing kits and tales of the walking afflicted (transport has been shut down) queuing for hours at hospitals, only to be turned away and sent home to die undiagnosed.

These glimpses of truth are about to vanish. The propaganda police have ordered those within their direct reach to conduct an “editorial review�. Stories are being censored aggressively. Outsiders will be silenced in subtler ways.

The coronavirus numbers are patently fiction. Far more have died than the official tally of 493. A Lancet study last week by the University of Hong Kong estimated that the Chinese authorities have understated the epidemic tenfold. This was based on a spread rate of 2.68 per case and a doubling in total numbers every 6.4 days, matched with known travel movements within China and globally since the outbreak.

It calculated even then that the true figure for Wuhan was likely to be 76,000, and that Chongqing, Changsha, Nanchang, are already riddled with the disease. “Independent self-sustaining outbreaks in major cities globally could become inevitable,� it said.

Views differ but it is striking how many global experts - when not under political pressure - say it may already be too late to stop the spread. “It’s very, very transmissible, and it almost certainly is going to be a pandemic,� said Anthony Fauci, head of the US National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Disease.

It is the same warning from an “increasingly alarmed� Peter Piot, head of the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine. The danger is that it will become endemic and circulate everywhere like flu, a manageable headwind for rich countries with good health care but a Sword of Damocles having over Africa or South Asia.

There is an inherent contradiction in the market’s nonchalance. Yes, it is possible that China’s 50-million lockdown and use of extreme surveillance and coercive power will accelerate the process of “contact tracking�, catching enough of those infected before they can spread it further. Such a hi-tech totalitarian response to an epidemic has never been tried before.

But the more thoroughly China enforces this, the greater the global economic shock is likely to be. How can industrial plants really be reopened next week? Yet if it takes another month, it becomes progressively harder to contain the international economic damage, and raises the risk of a Minsky Moment within China’s own hyper-leveraged system keeps rising.

We are in treacherous waters. The People’s Bank can no longer flick its fingers and ignite instant growth. Debt saturation and weak credit demand have furred up the monetary transmission channels. Extreme rate cuts and "QE with Chinese characteristics" would threaten to set of a yuan slide and ultimately a repeat of the 2015 currency crisis.

For now global markets remain in Pavlovian mode. There will always be more Chinese stimulus. Uncle Xi will always look after everybody. Close China-watchers - and some very sharp scientists - suspect that this latest flurry of optimism is just a lull before the thunderstorm.
From https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... mounting2/
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Post by Little John »

So, if the news leaked out by the by the Taiwanese press is to be believed that the true death count in China is around 25k out of 250k infected, that's around a 15% death rate which would put it on a par with SARS. Which, as CLV has already said, would seem more likely than the 300 or so dead that has been reported and would also explain the Chinese authorities' increasingly desperate measures to contain it including the effective walling in of at least one city of millions of people.

If the death rate really is that high and given we now already know that the virulence profile of this virus is that of the common cold and given that it is now looking increasingly likely that this virus is past containment, all of the above means that the vast majority of humanity is going to become exposed to it in the not too distant future.

There are 7.5 billion humans on this planet. 15% of 7.5 billion is 1.1 billion. That's more than a thousand million people who could die.

So, in terms of industrial civilizational collapse, that might just about do it... :lol:
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

Little John wrote:So, if the news leaked out by the by the Taiwanese press
Link: https://www.ccn.com/alleged-tencent-lea ... -to-25000/
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

There are 7.5 billion humans on this planet. 15% of 7.5 billion is 1.1 billion. That's more than a thousand million people who could die.
There will be a vaccine before next winter. Assuming the rest of your post is roughly correct (and that is a big assumption - we just don't know the truth), then we are still left with a massive unanswered question about how an epidemic would play out in the western world during the summer. Even if it as infectious as a common cold, a combination of warmer weather and western authorities being very quick to contain any outbreaks might keep the thing under some sort of control until a vaccine can be produced.

On the other hand this disease might turn out to be just as transmissible in warm weather as it is in cold and might defy even the best European attempts to contain it. Or the vaccine might prove elusive.

1.1 billion is possible, but I'm not getting my hopes up just yet. I doubt we are going to have to wait that long to find out what we're really dealing with though. Chinese government might lie, but it is not in the interests of other governments to lie, nor academics and medics.
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Post by mikepepler »

Third case in the UK, but it says they're another import, not local transmission.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51398039
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Post by mikepepler »

Latest from Singapore:
https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/ ... otal-to-30
Two more cases of the coronavirus infection were confirmed by the Ministry of Health (MOH) on Thursday (Feb 6), with one who did not travel to China recently and does not seem to be linked to previous cases.
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Post by clv101 »

If this does go properly global with 10s million deaths, China are going to the number 1 pariah state for a generation.

Also, folk inside WHO and other well 'connected' states must also have a clear idea of the true state of affairs. Are they just buying time, making use of the last ~week before all hell breaks loose?
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Post by kenneal - lagger »

Western governments might be more switched on but would they have the capacity and authority to build a thousand bed hospital within two weeks? I would like to see that done here but I doubt it would, somehow!
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Post by mikepepler »

clv101 wrote:If this does go properly global with 10s million deaths, China are going to the number 1 pariah state for a generation.

Also, folk inside WHO and other well 'connected' states must also have a clear idea of the true state of affairs. Are they just buying time, making use of the last ~week before all hell breaks loose?
Indeed, although if this virus had been contained it would only have been a matter of time before another one came out.

Re. buying time, it doesn't seem to be being put to good use. UK hospitals are only now being geared up for arrivals of infected people, and the preparation is minimal anyway. Maybe they've been quietly buying up PPE?
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Post by kenneal - lagger »

I've just put up advice on the Facebook page of one or our local environmental groups to quietly start stocking up with emergency food supplies, including vegetable seeds. I just hope that I don't get people who didn't take the advice queuing at my door come Armageddon.

When I've put this sort of advice up before I have had criticism along the lines of "What about people who can't afford to do that?" I don't know what that has got to do with the people who can afford it but maybe they should buy a little more to give away.
Action is the antidote to despair - Joan Baez
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