Discussion regarding the likely collapse of industrialised civilisation from the perspective of the UK. This will entail a significant involuntary reduction in the human population level (die-off). Associated topics include climate change and the wider ecological crisis, depletion of non-renewable resources, the political and economic consequences of collapse, and the psychological difficulty of accepting and coming to terms with it.
I have created a CollapseUK subreddit if anyone is intereste
Moderator: Peak Moderation
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UndercoverElephant
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I have created a CollapseUK subreddit if anyone is intereste
https://www.reddit.com/r/CollapseUK/
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kenneal - lagger
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Commented thus:-
One huge difference is that the UK has a very much greater population density than the US and we import 50% of our food so growing our own could be a problem. Distribution of food in the US would be a greater problem in the US than here as the distances that food is transported there are much greater and also the US relies to a great extent on irrigated land in California. Distribution of food in the UK would be a lesser problem than not having enough to distribute.
Places like Detroit in the US have shown that people can start growing their own food even in cities and there is the allotment movement in the UK. Whether or not the allotment growers in the UK could keep hold of their produce in the face of theft by masses of starving people is a moot point. The people with arms in the cities at the moment tend to be criminals so this would again affect allotment growers but I suspect there is a limited amount of ammunition in the hands of criminals so the first people to make their own bows or crossbows and arrows, and be willing to use them, would have the most sustainable form of power. Starvation, and the prospect of it, makes people do unexpected things.
The hope for those already living in a relatively sustainable situation is that the majority of those who don't will stay in their unsustainable place waiting for aid until it is too late for them to move out and they are too weak to do so. I know that that is callous but it is about survival in the end and a larger proportion of the population will survive healthily long term if there is a high and quick initial die-off. It will be survival of the fittest in the popular version initially rather than a long term survival of the fittest in the true Darwinian sense of beings cooperating and coexisting to ensure survival of as many as possible.
Regarding the proximity of Africa and the Middle East, any stoppage of the flow of oil and its products, which would probably be on of the causes of breakdown, would greatly affect the numbers of migrants as it is the ready availability of petroleum which facilitates the crossing of the Sahara, the Med and the English Channel in large numbers. Those numbers would decrease significantly if paddle or sail power had to be relied upon. Also with worldwide food shortages the migrants would be decimated by both starvation and people along the route defending their own limited food supplies. As food supply and population stabilised worldwide there might be an upturn in numbers of migrants if there was still a folk memory of the "lands with streets paved in gold" in Europe and other places but those numbers would still be very small in comparison to number today.
One huge difference is that the UK has a very much greater population density than the US and we import 50% of our food so growing our own could be a problem. Distribution of food in the US would be a greater problem in the US than here as the distances that food is transported there are much greater and also the US relies to a great extent on irrigated land in California. Distribution of food in the UK would be a lesser problem than not having enough to distribute.
Places like Detroit in the US have shown that people can start growing their own food even in cities and there is the allotment movement in the UK. Whether or not the allotment growers in the UK could keep hold of their produce in the face of theft by masses of starving people is a moot point. The people with arms in the cities at the moment tend to be criminals so this would again affect allotment growers but I suspect there is a limited amount of ammunition in the hands of criminals so the first people to make their own bows or crossbows and arrows, and be willing to use them, would have the most sustainable form of power. Starvation, and the prospect of it, makes people do unexpected things.
The hope for those already living in a relatively sustainable situation is that the majority of those who don't will stay in their unsustainable place waiting for aid until it is too late for them to move out and they are too weak to do so. I know that that is callous but it is about survival in the end and a larger proportion of the population will survive healthily long term if there is a high and quick initial die-off. It will be survival of the fittest in the popular version initially rather than a long term survival of the fittest in the true Darwinian sense of beings cooperating and coexisting to ensure survival of as many as possible.
Regarding the proximity of Africa and the Middle East, any stoppage of the flow of oil and its products, which would probably be on of the causes of breakdown, would greatly affect the numbers of migrants as it is the ready availability of petroleum which facilitates the crossing of the Sahara, the Med and the English Channel in large numbers. Those numbers would decrease significantly if paddle or sail power had to be relied upon. Also with worldwide food shortages the migrants would be decimated by both starvation and people along the route defending their own limited food supplies. As food supply and population stabilised worldwide there might be an upturn in numbers of migrants if there was still a folk memory of the "lands with streets paved in gold" in Europe and other places but those numbers would still be very small in comparison to number today.
Action is the antidote to despair - Joan Baez
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vtsnowedin
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Such an event will certainly unfold differently in the Uk and USA. I don't think food distribution in the US will be as difficult as you suppose. All fifty states still have freight rail service so perhaps fresh lettuce from California will be gone but the meat and potatoes and frozen peas will still be there. As to self defense from starving scavengers that certainly will be different in the US. The poor might work their way through the suburbs raiding house to house but will find more then a few suburbanites armed and willing to fight and once they get to rural America they will find that is the rule not the exception. If some do survive long enough to reach farmland they will find they have no clue about turning a crop or farm animal into a table ready meal The cows don't come with opening or microwave instructions on their ear tags.
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kenneal - lagger
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Probably value as it's an economic measurement and economics is all, at the moment!adam2 wrote:Regarding the "50% food imports to the UK" Does anyone know this 50% is measured ?
By weight in tons.
By volume in cubic meters.
By monetary value.
By calorie content.
Action is the antidote to despair - Joan Baez
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UndercoverElephant
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Lord Beria3
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UndercoverElephant
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kenneal - lagger
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We get back to the people who think we will have a slow decline or like me fast collapse 
I still see barbarian hordes the Tiber running with much blood, and a lack of fine chocolate
I still see barbarian hordes the Tiber running with much blood, and a lack of fine chocolate
"What causes more suffering in the world than the stupidity of the compassionate?"Friedrich Nietzsche
optimism is cowardice oswald spengler
optimism is cowardice oswald spengler
yup because I think thats what will happen, I dont see a slow decline I think at some point not sure when, you will get a fast collapse and people will see it as a collapse not a decline
"What causes more suffering in the world than the stupidity of the compassionate?"Friedrich Nietzsche
optimism is cowardice oswald spengler
optimism is cowardice oswald spengler
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kenneal - lagger
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I think we will continue the slow decline that we are seeing at the moment until it reaches a point where the financial and economic systems can't take it any more and we get complete collapse over a very short time. Once we reach a certain point with the financial system there will be a cascade of failures which will then impinge on manufacturing, exporting and food distribution and that will set off a complete collapse.
Action is the antidote to despair - Joan Baez