Brexit process

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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49541942
Brexit: Gove won't commit to abide by law to block no deal
This is now over the border into the totally surreal. What on earth is the point in the government trying to take the UK out of the EU with no deal, if parliament has explicitly made such an act illegal? How can a UK government seriously entertain the idea of blatantly breaking a law that has just been passed?

I don't believe they are considering this for one moment. It is just making even more certain that this all comes to a head next week, in order to precipitate an election. They are deliberately winding the anti-no-dealers up.
Little John

Post by Little John »

UndercoverElephant wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49541942
Brexit: Gove won't commit to abide by law to block no deal
This is now over the border into the totally surreal. What on earth is the point in the government trying to take the UK out of the EU with no deal, if parliament has explicitly made such an act illegal? How can a UK government seriously entertain the idea of blatantly breaking a law that has just been passed?

I don't believe they are considering this for one moment. It is just making even more certain that this all comes to a head next week, in order to precipitate an election. They are deliberately winding the anti-no-dealers up.
You seem especially exercised at the thought that the government may elect to use mangled and or obscure interpretations of parliamentary procedure either in spirit or in fact next week. I must confess, I don't recall seeing you you ever as exercised at the fact that, for the last three years, precisely the same and worse has been done by Remainers in parliament, aided and abetted, of course, by a speaker of the house who has entirely unconstitutionally turned a role of impartial arbitrator into a highlight politicized and partial power base.

Funny that, isn't it
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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

Little John wrote:You seem especially exercised at the thought that the government may elect to use mangled and or obscure interpretations of parliamentary procedure either in spirit or in fact next week.
Nope. You still don't understand where I'm coming from in this, regardless of how many times I explain it. I am simply astonished that any government, even in the current bizarre situation, would seriously contemplate flagrantly breaking the law of the land. If you'd asked me 3 years ago whether such thing was possible, I'd have said never in a million years. And yet here we are.

I am nothing like as emotionally invested in brexit as you are. For me, this is first class entertainment.
I must confess, I don't recall seeing you you ever as exercised at the fact that, for the last three years, precisely the same and worse has been done by Remainers in parliament, aided and abetted, of course, by a speaker of the house who has entirely unconstitutionally turned a role of impartial arbitrator into a highlight politicized and partial power base.

Funny that, isn't it
Remainers have never once contemplated breaking the law. They've failed miserably to understand why leave won, and they've openly made a mockery of democracy, but at all times they have worked within the law. As for the speaker, he didn't instigate the constitutional rule-bending. It was Theresa who started that game when she pulled the meaningful vote and started trying to run the clock down. He just followed suit.

Parliament is sovereign, not the government. This government lost its authority, as well as its majority, a long time ago. We should have had an election last year.
Little John

Post by Little John »

So, if you are comfortable with the making of a mockery of the democratic process - just so long as it is within the strict letter of the law of course - then perhaps you might explain why you chose to interpret the prospect of Johnson's refusal to step aside in the event of a caretaker administration wishing to take over from him in the event of a VoNC as a "constitutional crisis" since his refusal to do so would be entirely legally his right.

His only strictly legal obligation being, if by the end of the 14 days, he has not reversed a VoNC, that he must call an election.
Last edited by Little John on 02 Sep 2019, 00:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Vortex2
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Post by Vortex2 »

290 forum pages of bitter argument.

Well, none of it counts because the barstewards of all flavours in Westminster / The South will do exactly what they want.

They laugh behind their hands at the no-hope losers of the general populace.

My local MP costs the taxpayer around £250k a year and supported Theresa May 100% against the referendum vote of the locals.

He must have cost the taxpayer/state close to £1 million since elected.

All that money for nothing, absolutely nothing.

Repeat this for 700 or so MPs, thousands of civil servants.

It's enough to make you weep.
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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

I can't help noticing a similarity between the current situation and the situation before May called the 2017 election. Almost everybody is saying that if there's an election, the tories will win a thumping majority. Labour doing badly in the polls, after all. Corbyn's a dead-duck leader that his party can't rid itself of. How many people thought, when May called that election, that there was any chance at all she'd lose her majority?

People think its different now, because Corbyn fooled the remainers to vote for him last time, and they won't be fooled again!

I may turn out to be completely wrong, but I think Labour might surprise everybody again. Not by playing the same game, but by adapting it in a way that wrong-foots Johnson and Cummings instead.
Little John

Post by Little John »

UndercoverElephant wrote:I can't help noticing a similarity between the current situation and the situation before May called the 2017 election. Almost everybody is saying that if there's an election, the tories will win a thumping majority. Labour doing badly in the polls, after all. Corbyn's a dead-duck leader that his party can't rid itself of. How many people thought, when May called that election, that there was any chance at all she'd lose her majority?

People think its different now, because Corbyn fooled the remainers to vote for him last time, and they won't be fooled again!

I may turn out to be completely wrong, but I think Labour might surprise everybody again. Not by playing the same game, but by adapting it in a way that wrong-foots Johnson and Cummings instead.
He also fooled the labour leavers in the more than 60% of Labour constituencies who voted to Leave to vote for him as well. They wont be fooled again either. I believe you will indeed turn out to be wrong and the person most likely, by the sounds of it, to be most surprised, is going to be you by how wrong you are going turn out to be.
Little John

Post by Little John »

Meanwhile, it would be nice to get an answer to my last question
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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

Little John wrote:Meanwhile, it would be nice to get an answer to my last question
You mean the one that starts "If you're happy with remainers making a mockery of democracy..."?

I never said I was happy with that. Neither did I say I was "unhappy" with a constitutional crisis. You are continually reading things into my posts that aren't actually there.
Little John

Post by Little John »

https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/09/0 ... he-people/
Political language, said George Orwell, is ‘designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable’. We might now add that it is also designed to make assaults on democracy appear democratic; to make the warriors against the democratic will seem like defenders of the democratic ideal. This is what we saw on the streets of London and other cities across the UK at the weekend and it was a genuinely extraordinary sight: large groups of mostly middle-class people agitating for the destruction of the largest act of democracy in British history under the banner of defending democracy. The dizzy heights of Orwellianism have been well and truly reached.

It is time to get real about the so-called ‘Stop the Coup’ demos that have taken place in recent days, in which Remainers have flooded into the streets to rage against Boris Johnson’s suspension of parliament for a few more days than is normal. These are not pro-democracy gatherings. They are the precise opposite. They are a continuation of the political elite’s well-oiled, well-funded and unforgiving three-year war against the people’s will. This was apparent at every turn in the largest of the ‘Stop the Coup’ protests, the one in London on Saturday. EU flags fluttered everywhere. ‘Bollocks to Brexit’ was emblazoned on stickers, t-shirts, placards, hats. Making things even clearer, the rallying cry of ‘Stop Brexit’ was widespread. ‘Defend democracy… Stop Brexit’, protesters demanded.

These demonstrations are not concerned with stopping Boris from proroguing parliament – they are concerned with stopping the enactment of the largest democratic vote in history. The duplicity is breathtaking, even by the standards of today’s increasingly illiberal and authoritarian political and chattering classes. Protesters likened themselves to the Suffragettes. One of the speakers – Guardian columnist Owen Jones – said they were standing up for the great gains made by ‘our ancestors’ in their long, bloody struggle for democracy. Such staggering dishonesty. This is nothing short of a lie. These gatherings are not about defending the democratic rights won by our forebears; they’re about destroying them.

The demand is for the overthrow of the votes of the 17.4million people who want to leave the EU. When these people say ‘Stop Brexit’, they are saying ‘Stop those people from getting their way; stop their votes from having any impact; stop them from ignorantly interfering in political affairs’. This was a protest against the franchise itself, because if the votes of millions of people in one of the most important democratic exercises in our nation’s history are made null and void – as they would be if these middle-class marchers got their way and there was a second referendum – then the right to vote becomes meaningless. The vote becomes meaningless. The thing ‘our ancestors’ won for us – the vote – would be reduced to dust. There is something sick-making in the sight of Remainers comparing themselves to the Suffragettes and the Chartists as they agitate for the crushing of the votes of eight million women and millions of working-class men. The people whose democratic rights were won through hard struggle would be silenced and disenfranchised by this middle-class mob.

The intentions of the anti-Boris brigade are obvious. Just look at the petition that 1.7million of them have signed. It says: ‘Parliament must not be prorogued or dissolved unless and until the Article 50 period has been sufficiently extended or the UK’s intention to withdraw from the EU has been cancelled.’ (My emphasis.) Got that? Their overarching aim is to disenfranchise the voters of 2016. They are deniers of democracy, not defenders of it.

In a way, none of this is surprising. The business, political and cultural elites have been working hard for three years to try to dilute or thwart the vote for Brexit. Their opposition to proroguing is entirely in keeping with this, since its aim is to continue providing the members in the Remainer Parliament with the platform and the power to stymie the vote for Brexit. What these marchers are really saying is, ‘Boris’s proroguing of parliament is a disgraceful attack on democracy because it hampers the ability of MPs to continue attacking democracy’ – such is the moral contortionism of these pretend defenders of democracy. What is new is that the alliance against the people’s will is growing. It now includes Corbynistas alongside the Financial Times, middle-class leftists alongside old Tory patricians like Michael Heseltine, lifelong anti-Blairites alongside Blairites. They’re getting their act together.

And yet while the deceptive, dishonest ‘Stop the Coup’ marches are not surprising, they are deeply concerning. Language matters. Ideas matter. Democracy matters. We cannot allow people to distort the meaning of the word democracy so shamelessly and so thoroughly. We cannot allow the agitators against democracy to claim the mantle of democracy. Democracy is far too important to become the twisted plaything of the disgruntled urban elites.

Watching the ‘Stop the Coup’ protest in London and its phoney claims of being the latest manifestation of the historic struggle for democracy, I was reminded of how much this city has toiled for basic democratic rights. From St Mary’s Church in Putney, where the Levellers and others met in 1647 to discuss voting rights, to Kennington Common, where the Chartists gathered in their tens of thousands in 1848 to demand votes for working-class men, to the area outside parliament itself where Suffragettes were battered by police on Black Friday in 1910, this city hums with the history of people’s bloody fight for the vote. People wanted the vote because they wanted to impact on society, on constitutional matters, on the future itself. The ‘Stop the Coup’ lobby is not a movement to defend the vote – it is a movement against the votes of millions of people. It stands in stark opposition to all the great democratic struggles witnessed in London and across the United Kingdom over the centuries.

In a sense, ‘Stop the Coup’ isn’t a protest at all. It is a loud, colourful performance of the political establishment’s own thinking, of the key ruling-class ideology of our time: contempt for Brexit and contempt for voters. If these people are protesting against anything, it isn’t the powers-that-be – it’s us, the people, and the apparently disastrous fact that we won the right to have a say in political affairs.
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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

What Johnson and Cummings are doing is not a coup. It's a pantomime. A weird sort of pantomime where people have different opinions about who are the goodies and who the baddies, but nevertheless a pantomime insomuch as it is all completely over the top, and not for real. Everything they are doing is theatre, setting the stage for the election they know is coming.

I don't understand why so many remainers seem to have given up. It's like they don't realise it is theatre. They think it is real.
Little John

Post by Little John »

UndercoverElephant wrote:
Little John wrote:Meanwhile, it would be nice to get an answer to my last question
You mean the one that starts "If you're happy with remainers making a mockery of democracy..."?

I never said I was happy with that. Neither did I say I was "unhappy" with a constitutional crisis. You are continually reading things into my posts that aren't actually there.
It has become quite clear, so far as I can see from your posts, you are more relaxed with the antidemocratic shenanigans of parliament than you are with those of Johnson's administration in retaliation. We can call it "relaxed", "happy", "comfortable" or any other words. Irrespective, the net effect is that your posts normalize what parliament is doing and make a melodrama of what Johnson's administration is doing. But, they are no different - with one exception.

What Johnson is doing is simply adhering to the only democratic mandate underneath all of this. Not that anyone should trust him either, in the end. He just happens to be the right bastard for the job right now.
Last edited by Little John on 02 Sep 2019, 10:48, edited 1 time in total.
Little John

Post by Little John »

*George Galloway*

I've got to tell you something; I've been in politics for 50 years and anybody in Britain who thinks that there are votes to be won and not many votes to be lost by cursing and disrespecting the old queen really needs a shock lesson in civics.

Burning British flags and holding aloft EU flags, quite apart from the morality of all of this, is electorally disastrous for Jeremy Corbyn, John McDonnell, Diane Abbot and the other left wing leaders that are now indissolubly linked to this phenomenon.

These donkeys actually called for a general strike in defence of the European Union.

They didn't call for a General Strike against the war in Iraq or against the death of 129 thousand poor people at the hands of the DWP. They didn't call for a General Strike against the annihilation of our industrial base, against the death of the coal industry, the steel industry, the shipbuilding industry, the railway workshops or, indeed, the butchering of all our industries.

But, let's have a General Strike, they say, because Boris Johnson has added five days to the Parliamentary Holidays.
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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

Little John wrote:
UndercoverElephant wrote:
Little John wrote:Meanwhile, it would be nice to get an answer to my last question
You mean the one that starts "If you're happy with remainers making a mockery of democracy..."?

I never said I was happy with that. Neither did I say I was "unhappy" with a constitutional crisis. You are continually reading things into my posts that aren't actually there.
It has become quite clear, so far as I can see from your posts, you are more relaxed with the antidemocratic shenanigans of parliament than you are with those of Johnson's administration in retaliation. We can call it "relaxed", "happy", "comfortable" or any other words. Irrespective, the net effect is that your posts normalize what parliament is doing and make a melodrama of what Johnson's administration is doing. But, they are no different - with one exception.

What Johnson is doing is simply adhering to the only democratic mandate underneath all of this. Not that anyone should trust him either, in the end. He just happens to be the right bastard for the job right now.
That is an oversimplification, in my opinion.

I am relaxed because I am looking forward to the general election, and I have a sneaky suspicion that a lot of people are going to be surprised at the result. I think the polls are misleading, because the role of the brexit party has not been clarified. Labour won't play its cards until Farage and Johnson have declared their strategy for dealing with that problem.
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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49549960
Boris Johnson is considering seeking an early general election if MPs wanting to block a no-deal Brexit defeat the government this week.

The BBC understands "live discussions" are going on in No 10 about asking Parliament to approve a snap poll.

Political editor Laura Kuenssberg said it could happen as soon as Wednesday but no final decision had been taken.
Well blow me down...
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