What guns to buy? and related posts.

[adam2]

I repeat my earlier views, that whilst firearms are most useful tools for an uncertain future, that a huge supply of ammunition is of greater importance.

The more sensible and believable doomer novels all refer to the scarcity of ammunition. As do factual accounts of survivors from recent conflicts.

Spare guns for family members or trustworthy visitors are sensible, plus a choice of handguns, rifles and shotguns.

If defending your home or other facility against an armed mob, 1,000 rounds can be expended in not many minutes. (presuming rapid firing but not fully automatic weapons)
If things get really bad, you might face dozens of such battles.

Whilst some armed confrontations are won by luck, skill, heroism, or good tactics, I suspect that the side with the most ammunition usually wins.

If hunting scarce or elusive game, dozens of rounds might be needed per kill. How many rounds needed to reliably put food on the table of a large family for some years?

[vtsnowedin]

One of my hobbies is hand loading rifle ammunition. Along with the press and dies for all the calibers I have in the safe I keep components. (bullets, primers and powder) on hand sufficient to survive any possible disruption in supply. Consider that a pound of 3031 smokeless powder will load 233 rounds of 30-30 ammunition and that at present I have about six pounds of powder on hand and you will see that I'm not running out any time soon.
As to 22 long rifle they come 525 to a box and I have two boxes on hand and have not gone through a quarter of one practicing with my new rifle. Once I am satisfied with how it shoots my use will taper off to probably less then 200 a year. Rifle ammunition comes down to one 20 round box a year . 10 for practice and the other ten for the rifle season.
During the Obama years doomers feared an end to ammunition sales and created a shortage of 22LR ammo by hoarding it by the case (5000) rounds per case. I saw pictures of two car garages packed full six feet high in stacked cases. Those cases they paid $300 to $500 for are now only worth $190. Panicking costs you money!

[vtsnowedin]

Oh ,and hunting scarce or elusive game does not use any more ammo then shooting sheep in a pen. You don't shoot until you have a good shot so if the game is elusive fewer shots present themselves.

[ReserveGrowthRulz]

RGR, you were indeed correct with your predictions that unconventional oil extraction would increase hugely. It now makes up a large proportion of global production.


I'd welcome your predictions on the longevity of this unconventional oil.

You are asking a very big question. Are you sure you have the time, because there are multiple components involved in the answer and I occasionally trend voluminous.

And as VT noted, it probably isn't for this thread but something dedicated in the PO news or something.

[ReserveGrowthRulz]

Back to the original topic which is "what guns to buy"
The 10/22 Ruger take down I purchased has proven to be a bit of a chore to get sighed in properly. Problem being that the scope is mounted on the receiver and the barrel and forearm lock into it with less then a rock solid connection.

Mine mounts directly to the receiver. How does the forearm get involved in mounting the scope?

Recently I dropped my old hunting Bushnell onto a rail mount, and installed it on my Smith and Wesson M&P 15-22, along with a foregrip post. I LOVE the thing!! But I am only going to sight it in probably tomorrow morning. Can't wait to see what it'll do accuracy wise with decent optics.

This lets you hold the weapon one way and hit one point of aim and then change the way you are holding it and the pressures applied and hit another point entirely.

Can't say I've tried holding the weapon at different angles, is that what you are referring to? Or more, switching between left and right? Are you tilting the firearm in some extreme way?

I'm still working it out and think I can get the rifle scope combination to function properly in the field but have not yet achieved acceptable groups in spite of burning through about 200 rounds of ammo.

Burning through loads of ammo in a 22LR is the entire point!!

What constitutes an acceptable group, at what range? And what are the specs on the optics?

[ReserveGrowthRulz]

I repeat my earlier views, that whilst firearms are most useful tools for an uncertain future, that a huge supply of ammunition is of greater importance.

If my house was ever raided by the police, after noting on the TV news that I had been arrested for nose picking or whatever minor crime they were after me for, they would then have screaming headlines about THE ARSENAL FOUND IN THE NOSE PICKERS HOUSE WAS ASTOUNDING!!!! And they would lay out the pistols and rifles and optics and cases and ammo cans on a big table and follow up with AND THERE WERE TENS OF THOUSANDS OF ROUNDS OF AMMUNITION TOO!

A good supply of ammo is quite important.

The more sensible and believable doomer novels all refer to the scarcity of ammunition. As do factual accounts of survivors from recent conflicts.

Now I'm getting nervous. Almost collected another 500 rounds of 9mm while getting some rolls for dinner last night, you are making me want to kick myself for not having done it.

Spare guns for family members or trustworthy visitors are sensible, plus a choice of handguns, rifles and shotguns.

Yup, yup, and yup. One of each type for everyone in the family, and maybe a couple of next door neighbor's families as well!

If defending your home or other facility against an armed mob, 1,000 rounds can be expended in not many minutes. (presuming rapid firing but not fully automatic weapons)
If things get really bad, you might face dozens of such battles.

Well crap, then I'm good for no more than 10 battles! What do you think the minimal battle count should be? 30? Maybe 50?

I'm glad the closet containing the ammo sits directly on the slab, I'm not sure the floors above could take the weight of the foot lockers I use to keep the ammo in. You can't lift the damn things, turns out, ammo is HEAVY.

If hunting scarce or elusive game, dozens of rounds might be needed per kill. How many rounds needed to reliably put food on the table of a large family for some years?

Here I completely disagree. On only one occasion have I've ever needed anything other than a single shot for hunting, elusive, scarce or otherwise. I will exclude smaller, target practice animals from this count, rabbits, squirrels, ground hogs. Expending more than one round in their direction was common, but the practice invaluable for bigger game hunting later in life.

The only occasion I've ever needed more than 1 round was when I jumped a herd of whitetail from cover during the tail end of a snow storm, in the mountains. The land had been logged a few years prior, and the remnants were still providing cover, I was perhaps 30' from the intersection of two trees on their sides and noticed a whitetail that hadn't heard me coming. One shot, and he never rose. 30# of venison, woo hoo! I was going to feed the family for a couple months! The noise was followed by a huge rustling and noisy crunch and lo and behold, another whitetail stuck her head through the branches of one of the blowdowns to see what might be going on. Ka-Pow from a range of 20', and another 30# of venison. Upon that second shot the entire herd decided it was time to flee, and bad things were happening close by. They fled behind those two downed trees, but there was a gap of perhaps 10'. One of the deer was crossing left to right at a oblique angle headed away from me, if they had crossed it perpendicular I never would have had time, but shot #3 got him (this was a he) slanting through from right side rib cage to left side chest. He made it another 50' or so and collapsed.

3 shots. 3 whitetail. 100# of venison Fed 2 families for the rest of the winter.

While 1 shot is usually quite sufficient, a 1 shot rifle can be a handicap when the opportunity for more presents itself.

Remington Model 760, carbine length barrel (18-1/2 inches), slide action 30-06 with over and under sights. Good for ranges between standing right beside you to 250 yards for groundhogs.

[ReserveGrowthRulz]

As to 22 long rifle they come 525 to a box and I have two boxes on hand and have not gone through a quarter of one practicing with my new rifle. Once I am satisfied with how it shoots my use will taper off to probably less then 200 a year.

But...but..sure this works for a HUNTING basic ammo load, but what about PRACTICE!!!

I use a full size Sig-Sauer 1911 in 22 LR to practice holster work, without having to use the expensive ammo to get all the muscle memory right. And this is like the fun part of 22LR, you can use it for all sorts of practice!

Admittedly, once I get my 22LR rifles up and running I don't mess around with hunting much with them, but multiple timed targets, various ranges, different angles, steel plate matches, 22's are great for alot more than just picking off a whitetail with a head shot during hunting season.

Rifle ammunition comes down to one 20 round box a year . 10 for practice and the other ten for the rifle season.
During the Obama years doomers feared an end to ammunition sales and created a shortage of 22LR ammo by hoarding it by the case (5000) rounds per case. I saw pictures of two car garages packed full six feet high in stacked cases. Those cases they paid $300 to $500 for are now only worth $190. Panicking costs you money!

Hence the need to acquire now that per round 22LR prices are <4 cents a round.

[vtsnowedin]

As to 22 long rifle they come 525 to a box and I have two boxes on hand and have not gone through a quarter of one practicing with my new rifle. Once I am satisfied with how it shoots my use will taper off to probably less then 200 a year.

But...but..sure this works for a HUNTING basic ammo load, but what about PRACTICE!!!

.

I think 180 rounds of practice and 20 rounds for actual small game hunting is sufficient. back in the day I once burned through 1000 rounds of 7x57 ammo in a year in the quest for sub MOA groups. You too may age out of the need to burn prodigious amounts of ammo. In a survival situation you would certainly limit yourself to one round a day or less. And if you missed with the one round you would go hungry that night.
30 Lbs of meat out of a deer? You need a better butcher.

[ReserveGrowthRulz]

As to 22 long rifle they come 525 to a box and I have two boxes on hand and have not gone through a quarter of one practicing with my new rifle. Once I am satisfied with how it shoots my use will taper off to probably less then 200 a year.

But...but..sure this works for a HUNTING basic ammo load, but what about PRACTICE!!!

.

I think 180 rounds of practice and 20 rounds for actual small game hunting is sufficient.

I think 180 rounds is sufficient practice...for one gun. Once a month. What about all the other 22 rifles and pistols? And all the other 11 months!!

back in the day I once burned through 1000 rounds of 7x57 ammo in a year in the quest for sub MOA groups.

See, this one I would never do. All my early experience was big game season, and I was poor, so you had 3 rounds to make sure the rifle was still shooting where it was supposed to. 5 if you needed to change the point of aim. Never even knew what a MOA was back then, woodlands hunting not really requiring it. But the last time I took the tac-driver out to the range, fired some 35 year old ammo through it, it required 14 totals rounds, over about an hour, to get down to about 1-1/2 MOA. Good enough for me, I packed it in and might not touch that gun for another 5 years.

Do you need to shoot that much to get from 1-1/2 MOA to <1?

You too may age out of the need to burn prodigious amounts of ammo. In a survival situation you would certainly limit yourself to one round a day or less. And if you missed with the one round you would go hungry that night.
30 Lbs of meat out of a deer? You need a better butcher.

Oh, I've aged out, and aged back in, a couple times over the years. No kids, small kids, big kids who did it with me, kids out of the house, friends at work who aren't gun folks, friends at work who are.

I'm quite well aware of being hungry because I missed. So was my family. I supported all of us starting at age 12 through 19 with a rifle. And some trapping.

And we were our own butchers. Folks who can't afford to buy much meat sure can't afford the luxury of someone else doing the butchering. I don't know the size of whitetail in your neck of the woods, but they weren't all that big in mine.

[vtsnowedin]

When I was young and stupid I did things that were young and stupid.
White tail deer here are not especially large. A doe usually runs between 100 and 120 pounds field dressed depending on how many fawns she successfully raised that summer. There is a fork horn rule here at present so legal bucks tend to average about 150 field dressed. Remove hide, head and bones not packaged and you might get 45 to 50 pounds out of a doe and 75 to 80 out of a buck. It depends of course on how thoroughly you salvage all edible meat. Some take the back straps and hams and throw away the ribs / front shoulder/and lower leg meat. In my day all of that at least got ground into burger and my mother would cut the ribs into quarters that fit into the stock pot and boil them down until the bones came free and the meat and stock was pressure canned for stew base in the winter.
They being survivors from the first great depression and two world wars worked on the premise that you should use every part of a pig except the squeal and deer got similar treatment.

[ReserveGrowthRulz]

When I was young and stupid I did things that were young and stupid.

Hey!! Me too!

White tail deer here are not especially large. A doe usually runs between 100 and 120 pounds field dressed depending on how many fawns she successfully raised that summer. There is a fork horn rule here at present so legal bucks tend to average about 150 field dressed.

Well now, those are bigger than just about any whitetail I've ever harvested, except perhaps a decent sized buck when I was 12.

Remove hide, head and bones not packaged and you might get 45 to 50 pounds out of a doe and 75 to 80 out of a buck. It depends of course on how thoroughly you salvage all edible meat. Some take the back straps and hams and throw away the ribs / front shoulder/and lower leg meat. In my day all of that at least got ground into burger and my mother would cut the ribs into quarters that fit into the stock pot and boil them down until the bones came free and the meat and stock was pressure canned for stew base in the winter.
They being survivors from the first great depression and two world wars worked on the premise that you should use every part of a pig except the squeal and deer got similar treatment.

Grandma was a survivor of the GD as well, but it was my mom and one of her male friends from church, and later on me, that did the butchering. We lived in an area where the deer herds were kept thin and probably younger than most. Corn fed, they drove the farmers nuts, and there was some... not quite legal hunting going on in the off season. But hell, I was a 140# skinny kid and I'd throw one of those things over my shoulder and take it home tromping through the woods. I remember the first time I ever went after a mulie out west, and thought, now THIS is a deer!

But we didn't harvest every last drop, and we did primarily turn it into steaks and hamburger, with an occasion request for ribs if we had harvested it from a farmer who wanted some of the venison as well.

[Catweazle]

I like the "scout rifle" concept - a lightweight rifle, lowish powered scope with iron backup, stout calibre, tried and tested bolt action, magazine holding 3-5 rounds, comfortable sling.


My .308 ticks all the boxes except iron backup sights.

[ReserveGrowthRulz]

I like the "scout rifle" concept - a lightweight rifle, lowish powered scope with iron backup, stout calibre, tried and tested bolt action, magazine holding 3-5 rounds, comfortable sling.


My .308 ticks all the boxes except iron backup sights.

My Winchester Model 70 in 30-06 does as well. In the modern world though, if I was only given one rifle to carry, I'm not sure that would be the one.

[Mark]

We've got 2 yanks here discussing how they're armed to the teeth and can shoot up anyone they have a grudge with, intruders, their neighbourhood, wildlife population etc....

What gets me is how they always see themselves as the 'good guy' and the other guy as the 'bad guy'. Who is the arbiter of this ?

Like this chap....?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-49459855

[ReserveGrowthRulz]

We've got 2 yanks here discussing how they're armed to the teeth and can shoot up anyone they have a grudge with, intruders, their neighbourhood, wildlife population etc....

You have an objection to defending yourself, wildlife management (are you aware of the damage that whitetail deer do to crops?) or Yanks? Discussing something ON TOPIC in this thread?

What gets me is how they always see themselves as the 'good guy' and the other guy as the 'bad guy'. Who is the arbiter of this ?

Never thought of a whitetail deer as a bad guy. But there are certainly "bad guys" in this world, America has some, as does Britain. As kenneal-lagger has well pointed out, he and his countrymen have a different perspective in how to handle such things.

You should be reprimanded for your cultural insensitivity.