Brexit process

stumuz1 · Post by **stumuz1** » 13 Aug 2019, 09:22

I don't know what all the fuss is about re' proroguing parliament.
When the election is called Parliament is prorogued.

It seems that the tactic will be to call a VonC in September, (which is not certain that Bojo will lose) Then the 14 day scrabble around and pretend they're doing something show for the punters, if still no majority, then by convention (Callaghan) Parliament prorogued and election called.

By which time we will have left.

Trying to explain to some very intelligent people that every Parliament is prorogued comes as a shock to them.

stumuz1 · Post by **stumuz1** » 13 Aug 2019, 09:37

Bit like being in a supermarket on Friday when a person with a EU badge on their coat was buying a bag of salad.

I joked "you'll be buying chlorinated chicken next!"

No, he replied we'll never buy chlorinated chicken"

"But you're buying heavily chlorinated salad!"

The reply?

No it's not.

You got to give respect to the propaganda dept'

Ironically, it was in the co-op by Senate house, in London.

George Orwell's 1944 used Senate House as the inspiration for the Ministry of Truth.

raspberry-blower · Post by **raspberry-blower** » 13 Aug 2019, 11:15

AAV: Remainers have come up with their stupidest idea yet

fuzzy · Post by **fuzzy** » 13 Aug 2019, 13:06

I haven't read AAV for a long time - since he told us we should stay in the EU...

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 13 Aug 2019, 13:09

Little John wrote:It would appear a majority of British citizens support Brexit by any means including proroguing parliament if necessary.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-brita ... YG?rpc=401

https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/0 ... ic-vulnera

The Telegraph's decline from respectable broadsheet to semi-deranged prime ministerial fanzine continues. "Boris Johnson has public's support to shut down parliament to get Brexit over line" its front page says today - a series of words which have almost no connection whatsoever to objective reality.

The copy reads: "The ComRes survey for the Telegraph found that 54% of British adults think parliament should be prorogued to prevent MPs stopping a no-deal Brexit."
â€“â€“ ADVERTISEMENT â€“â€“

Their survey shows no such thing. It is so sloppily worded it looks like it's still being potty trained. The questions actually refer to "Boris", rather than the prime minister. If you look very closely, you can actually see the point when the professional integrity of the people involved left their body.

"Boris needs to deliver Brexit by any means, including suspending parliament if necessary," the question reads. It is plainly leading. It's like a nice furrowed path towards ticking the 'agree' box. And that agree box doesn't even relate to the headline. "If necessary" is not the same thing as "should be".

But even after all that, they still didn't get the answer they wanted. The ComRes data found 44% agreed, 37% disagreed, and 19% said don't know. So they just eliminated the don't knows and reformulated it to make it look like a majority.

It's an example of completely degenerate journalistic standards. But it also part of a sustained psychological campaign from across the Brexit-supporting press and government, which is just as baseless. It's an attempt to convince opponents of no-deal that they are doomed.

[continues]

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 13 Aug 2019, 16:17

Okay, so reallocating don't knows equally between Yes and No:

Yes, Johnson should do whatever is necessary - 53.5%

No he should not - 46.5%

Unless you think that entire 19% should be allocated to No? In which case, I am all ears as to why.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 13 Aug 2019, 16:21

You are grasping at straws UE.

Whichever way you cut it, Leave by any means necessary is now the opinion of almost certainly at least 50% of the population. The public have not changed their minds except, perhaps, insofar as some Remainers have gone over to Leave, if only on the back of realizing that the democratic result must be carried out. Meanwhile, the original Leave vote has hardened if anything.

Personally speaking, I have a suspicion as to the reason why and it is a far deeper one than Brexit. It's because, I suspect, as push is coming to shove, a majority of people in this country still happen to believe in the quaint idea of democracy being a rather important thing to maintain.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 13 Aug 2019, 19:24

Little John wrote:You are grasping at straws UE.

Actually, all I did was post a link to an article. I didn't write it. The same point has also been made by several other journalists. The poll itself is worded in a way which leads people towards giving a certain answer, and the analysis really is flawed.

Additionally, as I have told you about a hundred time already now, I would be perfectly happy to see a no deal brexit.

Whichever way you cut it, Leave by any means necessary is now the opinion of almost certainly at least 50% of the population.

That is nonsense. Firstly you mean the electorate and not the population, and secondly there is no data support that claim. It's probably more like 40%, which is still a lot.

The public have not changed their minds except, perhaps, insofar as some Remainers have gone over to Leave, if only on the back of realizing that the democratic result must be carried out. Meanwhile, the original Leave vote has hardened if anything.

I personally suspect there's been a small drift from leave to remain, but the vast majority of people who voted in that referendum have not changed their minds.

Personally speaking, I have a suspicion as to the reason why and it is a far deeper one than Brexit. It's because, I suspect, as push is coming to shove, a majority of people in this country still happen to believe in the quaint idea of democracy being a rather important thing to maintain.

There are certainly some people who voted to remain but who do not want to see the result overturned because they fear the consequences, including the undermining of our democracy.

cubes · Post by **cubes** » 13 Aug 2019, 22:06

stumuz1 wrote:I don't know what all the fuss is about re' proroguing parliament.
When the election is called Parliament is prorogued.

It seems that the tactic will be to call a VonC in September, (which is not certain that Bojo will lose) Then the 14 day scrabble around and pretend they're doing something show for the punters, if still no majority, then by convention (Callaghan) Parliament prorogued and election called.

By which time we will have left.

Trying to explain to some very intelligent people that every Parliament is prorogued comes as a shock to them.

This isn't the issue. The issue is proroguing parliament specifically to let something happen (and stopping the ability for the elected parliament to have a say) then letting parliament reassemble afterwards for the queen's speech.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 13 Aug 2019, 22:42

You mean like with other elections?

Oh, and by the way - parliament already had its say when it:

1) voted to have a referendum

2) voted to trigger article 50

3) voted for the withdrawal act that stated, in terms, that the UK would leave with or without a deal

raspberry-blower · Post by **raspberry-blower** » 14 Aug 2019, 08:08

fuzzy wrote:I haven't read AAV for a long time - since he told us we should stay in the EU...

Perhaps you should Fuzzy - AAV has been highly critical of the Remain movement since then. In fact he has been highly critical of the on going farce full stop.

You don't have to agree with everything that is being said to understand the argument being made

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 14 Aug 2019, 08:17

I am afraid AAV burned his boats with me back during the referendum. His anti Brexiteer bile - including the deployment of "racism", "xenophobia", "fascism", "morons" and all the rest of the usual shop-worn, tired smears against Leavers - means that anything he may say now to redress that will just feel like he has finally decided to blow with the wind as an exercise in expediency.

Too little too late.

stumuz1 · Post by **stumuz1** » 14 Aug 2019, 09:01

cubes wrote:
This isn't the issue. The issue is proroguing parliament specifically to let something happen (and stopping the ability for the elected parliament to have a say)

No, it's letting parliament do what parliament said it would do. ie leaving according to art 50 which they voted for. Simple

cubes wrote: then letting parliament reassemble afterwards for the queen's speech.

There won't be a queens speech, there will be an election. Parliament will be dissolved, unless people think that labour won't vote for an election.

stumuz1 · Post by **stumuz1** » 14 Aug 2019, 18:07

WOW.

Just listening to the PM programme on Radio 4.

They have agreed with Channel 4 not to broadcast what the Prime Minister said on a Q&A Facebook.

BBC/Channel4 are now censoring.

I am really quite shocked.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 14 Aug 2019, 19:54

stumuz1 wrote:WOW.

Just listening to the PM programme on Radio 4.

They have agreed with Channel 4 not to broadcast what the Prime Minister said on a Q&A Facebook.

BBC/Channel4 are now censoring.

I am really quite shocked.

What did he say that they are censoring?