Welcome back - we've missed your rabid rants and your personal insults....Little John wrote:Okay., so I couldn't stay away.
Just look at the civil and rational discussion over the last 2/3 pages.....
Brexit process
Moderator: Peak Moderation
Personally, no. Pre EEC/EU, anything 'environmental' was seen by most businesses in this country as 'Hippy, Jesus sandal claptrap'kenneal - lagger wrote:And you think that all that wouldn't have changed if we hadn't joined the EEC?
Most businesses only changed behaviour because they were forced to by (EU) legislation....
Very few did it because it was the 'right' thing to do....
In a post-Brexit world, do you trust the Tories with the Environment ?
Or will we follow Trump's blueprint in the US ?
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Little John
I don't do polite. I don't do impolite either, as a matter of fact. Or, at least, not by design, though often admittedly by implication.Mark wrote:Welcome back - we've missed your rabid rants and your personal insults....Little John wrote:Okay., so I couldn't stay away.
Just look at the civil and rational discussion over the last 2/3 pages.....
I just do truth. At least so far as I see it.
Interesting article on 'post-liberal' politics, comparing right, centre and left wing post-liberalism.
https://quillette.com/2019/07/02/post-l ... nd-center/
Argues that while the US is split between right and left wing post-liberalism, the UK is forging a centrist post-liberal path which the (American) author appears to prefer.
I feel a lot of connection with a post-liberalism that rejects the globalist 'economic and personal freedom is everything' approach of neoliberalism. I find it hard to say whether I consider myself right, centre or left wing post-liberal however. I admire the right-wing prioritising of virtue and duty over rights and individualism - though this is more an American idea than British these days. I also admire the leftist desire to strengthen community engagement, address isolation, and reduce the divide between rich and poor. The centre meanwhile (according to the article) is trying to preserve the social gains for women, minorities, LGBT etc while arguing that liberalism has failed to 'lift all boats' and has ignored other aspects of societal value such as virtue, social connection, and beauty.
My fears about post-liberalism are really fears about minorities (ethnic, sexual etc) being scapegoated because they were the posterchilds of liberalism. I rather dread society heading towards a sort of 'Handmaid's Tale' dystopia due to a re-emergence of the ability to discriminate however the hell you like against people you think are part of the elite or have benefited from their support. That means I'll often fight a rearguard in support of neoliberal bastions like the EU, while actually I want to see the end of a globalist neoliberal hegemony that has entrenched inequality, insecurity, and an individualism that sees little or no value in virtue, community, duty etc.
https://quillette.com/2019/07/02/post-l ... nd-center/
Argues that while the US is split between right and left wing post-liberalism, the UK is forging a centrist post-liberal path which the (American) author appears to prefer.
I feel a lot of connection with a post-liberalism that rejects the globalist 'economic and personal freedom is everything' approach of neoliberalism. I find it hard to say whether I consider myself right, centre or left wing post-liberal however. I admire the right-wing prioritising of virtue and duty over rights and individualism - though this is more an American idea than British these days. I also admire the leftist desire to strengthen community engagement, address isolation, and reduce the divide between rich and poor. The centre meanwhile (according to the article) is trying to preserve the social gains for women, minorities, LGBT etc while arguing that liberalism has failed to 'lift all boats' and has ignored other aspects of societal value such as virtue, social connection, and beauty.
My fears about post-liberalism are really fears about minorities (ethnic, sexual etc) being scapegoated because they were the posterchilds of liberalism. I rather dread society heading towards a sort of 'Handmaid's Tale' dystopia due to a re-emergence of the ability to discriminate however the hell you like against people you think are part of the elite or have benefited from their support. That means I'll often fight a rearguard in support of neoliberal bastions like the EU, while actually I want to see the end of a globalist neoliberal hegemony that has entrenched inequality, insecurity, and an individualism that sees little or no value in virtue, community, duty etc.
However, from the other side of the tight community camp, it can be quite suffocating when the support structure that so many seem to crave nowadays, dislikes something you do.
Being part of a tight knit family, in an equally tight knit community growing up had its disadvantages.
When you are a heterodox doer and thinker, not conforming to the norm was usually met with disappointment, and a constant nudge to put you on the right track.
And remember, when you get a community you usually find floating to the top will be a 'community' leader. When you disagree with him/her things can get very subtle very quickly.
This was probably the reason I was drawn to 'Thatcherism' from a youngish age(16)
Didn't matter were you came from, or how poor you were, it was were you are going that was important.
The problem with liberalism is it never cleared any slums or set up any universal health care. You were free to do most things but could not because lack of resources. In a country where the majority of the wealth is still in the hands of the favoured families of 1066, liberalism seemed to be a fig leaf hiding most peoples disadvantage.
I've rambled on too long! Good article.
Being part of a tight knit family, in an equally tight knit community growing up had its disadvantages.
When you are a heterodox doer and thinker, not conforming to the norm was usually met with disappointment, and a constant nudge to put you on the right track.
And remember, when you get a community you usually find floating to the top will be a 'community' leader. When you disagree with him/her things can get very subtle very quickly.
This was probably the reason I was drawn to 'Thatcherism' from a youngish age(16)
Didn't matter were you came from, or how poor you were, it was were you are going that was important.
The problem with liberalism is it never cleared any slums or set up any universal health care. You were free to do most things but could not because lack of resources. In a country where the majority of the wealth is still in the hands of the favoured families of 1066, liberalism seemed to be a fig leaf hiding most peoples disadvantage.
I've rambled on too long! Good article.
'Very subtle' - I love itstumuz1 wrote:When you disagree with him/her things can get very subtle very quickly.
I agree with you, and I was a Thatcherite at 16 too, mostly because I benefited from her policy of not closing independent schools to favour comps. But at that age I didn't see the other side.
Community can certainly be suffocating if you are expected to conform. From my perspective as a village church minister, the community I see are mostly a mixture of elderly people on the margins with all kinds of physical and mental disadvantages, and healthy retired people who have a lot of power in the villages to either get things done or keep things unchanged forever. The working middle are mostly invisible in community life except during the school run.
I'm fortunate that I'm a 'guest' in the community and only expected to conform in playing the vicar of dibley role. And since my appointment is temporary, and I'm not part of one of the great old families of this region, no one expects anything else of me, and the old feuds over land and property etc go on out of sight. I have to say I never knew anything about all this while I was sat behind a desk earning money in the City. Community? That's just a burden on my taxes!
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Lord Beria3
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UndercoverElephant
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This is an interesting take. Is blowing fuses in remainer heads. What if you start by acknowledging that the Irish border simply cannot be closed?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCcffoqcWsw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCcffoqcWsw
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woodburner
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Lord Beria3
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Little John
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UndercoverElephant
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If there was a general election now, Corbyn would end up in Downing Street. Also, Labour switching to a stronger leave position would see then drop further in the polls.Little John wrote:Labour now on 18% in some polls UE.
Remind me how that clever Labour strategy is going?
Why do you keep asking the same question when the answer hasn't changed?
I will explain again: there is no point in Labour changing its policy on brexit until the election of the new tory leader, and probably not until an election is called. Until such time as you can suggest a policy change which would improve their fortunes between now and then, I don't know what point you are making.
Also explained again: my bottom line is not that I want a Labour victory, but that I want the tories destroyed. We are still on course for that.
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Lord Beria3
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That simply isn't the case UE.
Labour at 18% is very close to a major collapse.
Recently had a play with some of the polling where the Brexit Party was leading at 26%. The result of a ge - a Brexit Party landslide.
On This Week they were saying the same. A small shift in one party or another could lead to huge changes in the final result.
Our electoral politics is now a 4 way marginal now so nobody can say with any confidence that Corbyn will be our next PM.
Yes, Corbyn might get elected but so could Boris or even Farage.
Labour at 18% is very close to a major collapse.
Recently had a play with some of the polling where the Brexit Party was leading at 26%. The result of a ge - a Brexit Party landslide.
On This Week they were saying the same. A small shift in one party or another could lead to huge changes in the final result.
Our electoral politics is now a 4 way marginal now so nobody can say with any confidence that Corbyn will be our next PM.
Yes, Corbyn might get elected but so could Boris or even Farage.
Peace always has been and always will be an intermittent flash of light in a dark history of warfare, violence, and destruction
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UndercoverElephant
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Yes. So the question Little John needs to answer is "What changes to its brexit policy would shift Labour's electoral prospects in a positive manner?"A small shift in one party or another could lead to huge changes in the final result.
And the answer is there isn't one. Labour's policy is the only one that makes sense, and moving in either direction on brexit (at this point) would lose them votes. The only thing that makes sense is for Labour to wait until it finds out what happens to Johnson when he finally takes over. Things could then start changing very quickly, including a general election being called and Labour moving its brexit position in response to whatever the tories do.
I simply don't understand why people are attacking Corbyn. There's nothing else he can do apart from what he's doing. It is not his fault that Labour is split on brexit.