Brexit process

RevdTess · Post by **RevdTess** » 02 Jul 2019, 17:10

boisdevie wrote:"UKIP also has an agenda beyond Brexit - they want to oppose multiculturalism - so I doubt they'll feel their work is done. " I live in a town where we've had a growing muslim population for the last 50 years. Do you know how much they've integrated? Not one bit. That's just how great your beloved multiculturalism is in my neck of the woods.

You quote me so I assume you think I see multiculturalism as "beloved". I do not. In recent years I've preferred to live in places like Wales and now Cornwall, where the local culture is and has been under pressure from English hegemony. Personally, when I go to live in a place that has a distinctive culture I try to assimilate as much as I can. In Wales I started to learn Welsh, supported Welsh rugby, learned the national anthem (sung beautifully by Aled Jones), respected the great divide between those who were 'Chapel' and those who were 'Church', and looked the other way when the locals burned down the English second homes.

Okay, I'm slightly joking. I've never liked Aled Jones.

Seriously though, multiculturalism is always a problem when you're losing a way of life that's precious to you because another culture is taking over without any sensitivity to the communities that went before or are currently still there. Where I probably differ from UKIP is that I personally prefer the Celtic, Gaelic and Breton cultures to the Anglo-Saxon, for whom the concept of cultural humility seems eternally absent :).

[ To be honest, in Cornwall where we have 1 mosque and 627 churches for half a million people, cultural Islam still really winds people up, even though we have less than 1000 Muslims in the entire count[r]y (compared to 2000+ Jedi Knights apparently) ]

The danger for liberals is the hypocrisy of wanting everyone's culture to be respected, celebrated and preserved, while also having a strong distaste for the militant Anglo-Saxon hegemony. The danger for the English culture is the hypocrisy of thinking that every other culture should always assimilate into Englishness, wherever it may be found. I also recognise that while I think everyone should assimilate if possible into the culture where they live, not everyone can choose where they live, so things are often difficult and messy, and cultural sensitivity is needed on all sides.

Anyway, 'beloved multiculturalism' doesn't reflect how I feel at all. It's much more complicated and tangled up with liberal self-loathing :/

On reflection, this probably isn't the thread for such a topic...

Lord Beria3 · Post by **Lord Beria3** » 02 Jul 2019, 18:11

Back to Brexit folks!

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 02 Jul 2019, 18:28

Mark wrote:
kenneal - lagger wrote:He also pointed out that UK animal welfare and environmental regulations were, in most cases, more stringent than those of the EU. In many other cases the government had been unable to act because of EU legislation.

So much for the Remainer lie of the environment being in danger if we leave the EU.
Really ?
Before we joined the EU, we were known as the dirty man of Europe....
Currently, the vast majority of our environmental laws are defined by EU Directives, which are then transposed into national legislation
ie they're all pretty much the same in every country - with the aim of a level playing field
Accept that the implementation/policing can vary from country to country, but the UK has been dragged through the courts time after time for non-compliance, so we're hardly a leader, but much better than when we joined....

We were known as the dirty man of Europe because we mined and burned a lot of coal. We stopped doing that when we got North Sea Gas. Nothing to do with Europe.

We have a Climate Change Act which is not European legislation and is often none existent in European countries. Most of our environmental and animal welfare legislation goes much further than European legislation; ask any farmer.

woodburner · Post by **woodburner** » 02 Jul 2019, 19:42

Animal welfare in the UK used to be as low as they could get away with in many cases. Not all, I saw some very good examples, but there were some that were pretty dismal. EU requirements have raised requirements for standards, though it doesnâ€™t mean they are complied with.

fuzzy · Post by **fuzzy** » 03 Jul 2019, 08:34

Mark wrote:
kenneal - lagger wrote:He also pointed out that UK animal welfare and environmental regulations were, in most cases, more stringent than those of the EU. In many other cases the government had been unable to act because of EU legislation.

So much for the Remainer lie of the environment being in danger if we leave the EU.
Really ?
Before we joined the EU, we were known as the dirty man of Europe....
Currently, the vast majority of our environmental laws are defined by EU Directives, which are then transposed into national legislation
ie they're all pretty much the same in every country - with the aim of a level playing field
Accept that the implementation/policing can vary from country to country, but the UK has been dragged through the courts time after time for non-compliance, so we're hardly a leader, but much better than when we joined....

EU regulations are written by lobbyists and lawyers for multinational business, to impose tedious compliances that hamper any business from medium to small. Eg unless you employ lawyers, accountants and admin staff. Look at VAT etc.
Look at the slaughterhouse closures that have live meat travelling up and down the UK. OK they are happy to sell it live to the Saudis anyway, but we can only change our own backyard.

In my area of electronics, EU regs definitely killed off and stopped new birth of business.

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 03 Jul 2019, 12:16

fuzzy wrote:....................
Look at the slaughterhouse closures that have live meat travelling up and down the UK. ............

The two slaughter houses within three miles of my farm closed then the one ten miles away and now luckily there is one 38 miles away that I use. Why luckily 38 miles away? If it had been 40 miles away I would have had to have done an expensive course on moving cattle and got a certificate to prove my competence!!

Oh the joys of living in the EU and running a small business.

Mark · Post by **Mark** » 03 Jul 2019, 13:20

kenneal - lagger wrote:We were known as the dirty man of Europe because we mined and burned a lot of coal. We stopped doing that when we got North Sea Gas. Nothing to do with Europe.

& we dumped raw sewage and nuclear waste in the sea
& we couldn't swim at our polluted beaches
& we had rivers so heavily polluted they were effectively dead
& we dumped nearly all our waste in unlined landfills
& we barely regulated our industries
& & &

If you want to go back to an unregulated free-market, free-for-all, go and visit China to see what it will be like...

NOTE: I'm not saying that all EU Environmental Legislation is great or well/evenly implemented, I just think that it's moved us a long way forward and it's far preferable to the alternative....

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 03 Jul 2019, 16:08

And you think that all that wouldn't have changed if we hadn't joined the EEC?

woodburner · Post by **woodburner** » 03 Jul 2019, 19:19

I donâ€™t like the E, but I suspect much wouldnâ€™t have changed outside the EU. Look at the generally low standards for everything bio related in the US.

PS_RalphW · Post by **PS_RalphW** » 04 Jul 2019, 10:15

Latest yougov poll has labour further squeezed into 4th place by Corbyn's fence sitting, and flavible has them 3rd in number of seats, enabling a con/farage coalition possible.

However, I cannot imagine Johnson and Farage working together. They are both far too egotistical

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 04 Jul 2019, 13:45

woodburner wrote:I donâ€™t like the E, but I suspect much wouldnâ€™t have changed outside the EU. Look at the generally low standards for everything bio related in the US.

We aren't the US. We have a Climate Change Act, the first in the world, and that wasn't EU mandated.

On another tack, we got our ballot papers for the Tory leadership election this morning. Who to vote for? Boris, the amiable twit who will let business off paying tax but will take us out of the EU in October or Jeremy, the Remainer, who will take us out of the EU, like Mrs May was going to or not?

Lord Beria3 · Post by **Lord Beria3** » 04 Jul 2019, 20:45

Hunt's latest gaffe over hunting is the final nail in the coffin for me - he is Continuity May through and through.

I'll be voting for Boris

I did thing Hunt had a bit of momentum until today but he's totally blown it. I'm confident now that Boris will get at least 60% of the vote and might push 70 plus.

Vortex2 · Post by **Vortex2** » 04 Jul 2019, 22:19

My poll paperwork has arrived.

So which buffoon should I vote for?

Or maybe I should spoil the paper?

Actually, I'm attending the Gloucester hustings so perhaps I should wait until I have seen both nincompoops in real life?

Lord Beria3 · Post by **Lord Beria3** » 04 Jul 2019, 22:46

Sounds like a good idea if your not sure!

Hunt comes across as a really nice guy but he lacks the political instincts to be a good PM.

Given that the Tories are finished if we don't get out of the EU by the end of 2019 I'd say give Boris a chance. Either he will do better than expected or he will implode... but lets be honest, the party is already in a dire state thanks to May.

When facing likely death, you might as well leap into the dark with Bojo.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 05 Jul 2019, 08:10

Okay., so I couldn't stay away

Oh, and, by the way, latest polling of Labour shows, entirely predictably, what happens to you when you piss all over democracy.

Sure, the MSM is going hell for leather to smear the Labour party right now. But, most of these smears would have been like water off a duck's back if the Labour party had taken the side of the people. But, it didn't and so the people were pissed off with Labour anyway. So, the smears are hitting an already receptive audience.

You reap what you sow.