Brexit process

vtsnowedin · Post by **vtsnowedin** » 24 Jun 2019, 00:35

I will go way out on a limb here and predict that like Trump unexpectedly winning the US presidency at the next General election the Brexit" no deal" party will sweep the seats and Farage will be PM without having to form a coalition with any splinter party.
Just my take from my side of the pond but I think many of you are underestimating the level of anger from those that voted "leave" that have not been listened to.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 24 Jun 2019, 00:41

vtsnowedin wrote:I will go way out on a limb here and predict that like Trump unexpectedly winning the US presidency at the next General election the Brexit" no deal" party will sweep the seats and Farage will be PM without having to form a coalition with any splinter party.
Just my take from my side of the pond but I think many of you are underestimating the level of anger from those that voted "leave" that have not been listened to.

That is quite a limb.

Some people are indeed underestimating the level of anger, but for this to lead to a Brexit Party overall majority would require a truly bizarre combination of events. The relevance of the Brexit Party is not any real threat to win, but the very real power it has to disturb pre-brexit political normality.

They can't win. The question is by how much they reconfigure the game everybody else is playing.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 24 Jun 2019, 00:48

Blue on blue...

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9357889/j ... -a-coward/

...donâ€™t be a coward Boris - man up and show the country you can cope with the intense scrutiny the most difficult job in the country will involve.â€�

vtsnowedin · Post by **vtsnowedin** » 24 Jun 2019, 00:53

We will see.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 24 Jun 2019, 09:36

UndercoverElephant wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48736968

Jeremy Hunt has added his voice to calls for Tory leadership rival Boris Johnson to answer questions about a row with his girlfriend which led to police being called to their address.
Hunt is playing a clever game here. I don't like him one little bit. I follow politics closely, and have thought he was a complete c*nt for many years now. But look at him in this clip - tie off, very relaxed, showing he's actually got his own campaign under control. Basically accusing Johnson of being a coward with no coherent policies. Hunt playing the "I'm a normal person, and will be a diligent, responsible prime minister" card, and it might just work.

Johnson needs to up his game, or he could lose this.

Who gives a flying F--k about whether or not he has his tie on other than hyperventilating media types and bourgeois liberal Remainers desperately trying to push a narrative based on the insubstantiality of "personalities" over substantive argument?

Once again, this is a desperate, pathetic argument.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 24 Jun 2019, 10:15

Little John wrote:
UndercoverElephant wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48736968

Jeremy Hunt has added his voice to calls for Tory leadership rival Boris Johnson to answer questions about a row with his girlfriend which led to police being called to their address.
Hunt is playing a clever game here. I don't like him one little bit. I follow politics closely, and have thought he was a complete c*nt for many years now. But look at him in this clip - tie off, very relaxed, showing he's actually got his own campaign under control. Basically accusing Johnson of being a coward with no coherent policies. Hunt playing the "I'm a normal person, and will be a diligent, responsible prime minister" card, and it might just work.

Johnson needs to up his game, or he could lose this.
Who gives a flying F--k about whether or not he has his tie on other than hyperventilating media types and bourgeois liberal Remainers desperately trying to push a narrative based on the insubstantiality of "personalities" over substantive argument?

Once again, this is a desperate, pathetic argument.

It's not an argument at all, Steve.

If anybody's posts around here are starting look pathetic, they are yours. You seem to have a poor understanding of how politics actually works, and it is getting poorer. Yes, personalities and presentation do matter. You can argue that they shouldn't, but it won't change the reality that they do.

You keep going on about democracy. Well, dumb people get to vote too, and some of them are swayed by presentation and personality.

Snail · Post by **Snail** » 24 Jun 2019, 13:03

Jeremy Hunt is just copying Tony Blair from twenty years ago!

I think too much credence is given to the media nowadays: Brexit, trump, even the Scottish Indy shows large amount of people have stopped listening. Twisted narratives might as well be classed as untrue and fake. And people are cottoning on.

The leadership is all about brexit, and only brexit. That's what counts the most.

I hope so anyway, because hunt would be a democracy-surrender.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 24 Jun 2019, 13:10

UndercoverElephant wrote:
Little John wrote:
UndercoverElephant wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48736968
Hunt is playing a clever game here. I don't like him one little bit. I follow politics closely, and have thought he was a complete c*nt for many years now. But look at him in this clip - tie off, very relaxed, showing he's actually got his own campaign under control. Basically accusing Johnson of being a coward with no coherent policies. Hunt playing the "I'm a normal person, and will be a diligent, responsible prime minister" card, and it might just work.

Johnson needs to up his game, or he could lose this.
Who gives a flying F--k about whether or not he has his tie on other than hyperventilating media types and bourgeois liberal Remainers desperately trying to push a narrative based on the insubstantiality of "personalities" over substantive argument?

Once again, this is a desperate, pathetic argument.
It's not an argument at all, Steve.

If anybody's posts around here are starting look pathetic, they are yours. You seem to have a poor understanding of how politics actually works, and it is getting poorer. Yes, personalities and presentation do matter. You can argue that they shouldn't, but it won't change the reality that they do.

You keep going on about democracy. Well, dumb people get to vote too, and some of them are swayed by presentation and personality.

I see. Thanks for clearing that up

So, to summarize your position, you consider the furtherance of certain political goals as more important than respecting a democratic mandate. That is to say, you clearly consider the fortunes of Labour to be more important than adhering to a democratic vote to the extent, by definition, you are prepared to see a democratic vote usurped in the furtherance of Labour's fortunes.

I am of the Left and, until very recently, I was firmly of the Labour party. But, push has come to shove and I have been forced to choose between Labour or democracy. I have chosen democracy. You have chosen otherwise. But, the problem is, if we don't have democracy, we don't have anything. Democracy - even the flawed democracy we have in this country - is and always has been the most revolutionary tool we posses. Left... Right... These concepts become meaningless without democracy. Without democracy, all you have is raw naked power, who wields it and who must endure it.

You are an anti-democrat because you have accommodated yourself to being comfortable with the possibility of seeing the one single weapon the ordinary citizens of this country have to hold the bastards who rule us to account - imperfect as it is - taken away from them. If only by the omission of support of it, if not directly and overtly opposing it. I mean - you quite like democracy and all that. But, it's not the be all and end all... right?

And I am afraid I no longer believe your protestations that you want Brexit to happen. Sure, you may want it to happen if it does not get in the way of your other political goals. But, not if it does. That, in itself, could be a democratically legitimate position were it not for the fact that it is also predicated on being supportive of moves to deny the people the enactment of a democratic mandate that has now already occurred to enact Brexit. That makes you and people like you the enemy of democracy - which is to say, the enemy of the people - no less than those who you are otherwise happy to be seen to criticise for their more open (and more honest) antipathy towards democracy.

In fact, it makes you worse. As least they are honest about it.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 24 Jun 2019, 14:47

Little John wrote:
So, to summarize your position, you consider the furtherance of certain political goals as more important than respecting a democratic mandate.

That is an oversimplification. Both matter.

That is to say, you clearly consider the fortunes of Labour to be more important than adhering to a democratic vote to the extent, by definition, you are prepared to see a democratic vote usurped in the furtherance of Labour's fortunes.

No. Firstly, I am not pro-Labour. I am anti-tory. While there is some overlap, they aren't the same thing. And secondly, I am not saying anything about how important it is to "adhere to a democratic vote". You have repeatedly confused my comments about what I think is likely to happen with what I want to happen. Every time I write "I believe parliament will stop no deal", you read "I would like parliament to stop no deal." I don't know why, because I have explained this to you many times, and yet you persist.

However, there are also trade-offs. It may well be the case that I am forced to choose between voting Labour, knowing that a Labour government probably won't be able to deliver brexit, and voting tory, knowing that they are more likely to be able to deliver brexit but that they will deepen their attacks the working class. In that situation I will vote Labour, and have no intention of apologising for it. I have every right to make my own choices about political priorities. That's not "anti-democratic". It is merely playing the game by the rules made up by somebody other than myself.

And I am afraid I no longer believe your protestations that you want Brexit to happen. Sure, you may want it to happen if it does not get in the way of your other political goals.

Exactly. And there is nothing wrong with that. I am free to choose what matters most to me, politically. That does not make me "anti-democratic". It merely means I believe class warfare to take priority over brexit.

I am also very strictly honest at all times. I don't lie, ever.

Post by **clv101** » 24 Jun 2019, 14:50

Snail wrote:I think too much credence is given to the media nowadays: Brexit, trump, even the Scottish Indy shows large amount of people have stopped listening. Twisted narratives might as well be classed as untrue and fake. And people are cottoning on.

Agreed, the 'media' isn't as important as it was - however, with the Tory party members, it's probably holding on to its importance more than with the general population.

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 24 Jun 2019, 15:29

We need to get out of Europe now because we will never be given another chance either by our government and TPTB or Europe, who will change the rules to make it even more difficult, or even impossible practically, to leave.

We can always change our own government in five years time if they give us something we don't want and Trump has shown that you can pull out of an international agreement if you don't like it.

So why not get out of Europe while we can and then worry about what any new government, the make up of which we will have no idea about until after an election, might do in the future in the future?

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 24 Jun 2019, 15:56

kenneal - lagger wrote:
We can always change our own government in five years time

I am not voting tory to get brexit. Too many decades of watching them viciously attack ordinary people.

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 24 Jun 2019, 16:38

Vote Brexit party then.

woodburner · Post by **woodburner** » 24 Jun 2019, 18:05

UndercoverElephant wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:I will go way out on a limb here and predict that like Trump unexpectedly winning the US presidency at the next General election the Brexit" no deal" party will sweep the seats and Farage will be PM without having to form a coalition with any splinter party.
Just my take from my side of the pond but I think many of you are underestimating the level of anger from those that voted "leave" that have not been listened to.
That is quite a limb.

Some people are indeed underestimating the level of anger, but for this to lead to a Brexit Party overall majority would require a truly bizarre combination of events. The relevance of the Brexit Party is not any real threat to win, but the very real power it has to disturb pre-brexit political normality.

They can't win. The question is by how much they reconfigure the game everybody else is playing.

They could win, but not while there are postal votes available, as shown in Peterborough.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 24 Jun 2019, 19:26

kenneal - lagger wrote:Vote Brexit party then.

I might do, if there is no pact with the tories. If an election is called this year then I am yet to decide whether to vote Labour or BXP. Not enough information, yet.