Brexit process

[clv101]

"Localisation stands, at best, at the limits of practical possibility, but it has the decisive argument in its favour that there will be no alternative." ~Fleming

[fuzzy]

"No society should be be managed, except by it's peers, chosen from a distance no more than 1/2 a day's horseride" - me

[Vortex2]

We built this world - and the young just use it.

Spending hours on the Web each day isn't contributing to society.

My wife and I have worked our legs off since we left university many years ago.



However when I look at the various young people I know, I don't see similar dedication or drive.


Ticking protest 'likes' on websites and changing your avatar in support of terror victims is not a 'real' activity.

In my old age I still take part in political protests ... which are poorly attended by young people.

These socially aware youngsters couldn't even get off their arses to vote in the Brexit referendum.

So, yes, I am proud to be an old git who voted for Brexit.

By the way, it was not a racist or governance based vote : I checked out the financials via the EBC, EU, IMF, OECD etc websites. It soon became clear that the EU is not a worthwhile partner for the UK financially.

Vortex2 thank you for this fascinating insight into the mind of a hyper reactionary "GOG" brexiteer.

I think you will find that you are a classic case of a person displaying extreme symptoms of, probably incurable ephebiphobia. If you have children I guess you must be very disappointed indeed that they did not turn out to be unquestioning clones of your authoritarian self.

No doubt you to have very negative opinions about the inadequate, superficial, spoilt, unbearably middle class young folk of extinction rebellion towards whom many GOGs on this board take such a holier than thou attitude whilst sitting on their arses.

Heaven help us.

That was somewhat impolite and uncalled for.

I in fact support the protestors and indeed I was at the G20 protest some years back, displaying a placard "Punish The Looters".

My wife and I run a smallholding, have built an eco house, have had stands at many Farmer's Markets and are members of the local Transition group.
And, no, I don't have ephebiphobia - but you re clearly are a sesquipedalian.

So how old are you, and what have YOU done?

[RevdTess]

Bullshit.

Irrespective of where on the Left/Right continuum someone lies, I merely call anyone who does not believe in or adhere to the principle of democracy a fascist - as objectively evidenced by their words or actions that are designed to undermine or ignore democracy. Because, by definition, that is what such people are. Anti-democratic tendencies leading to the undemocratic assumption of power based on a concomitant assumption of inherent superiority being the singular definition of fascism.

Well, I agree with George. It is "totally counter-productive" to wield the 'fascist' word against non-violent progressives simply because we believe there's more to democracy than a single referendum. We really need to keep the word for real fascists who use real violence and hate to take and keep control. The language we use matters deeply, as I know you agree, because...

Now, of course, we all know that our own, home-grown version of the above is wrapped up in an age-old, class-ridden, bureaucratic, bourgeois, oh-so-British, passive-aggressive politeness of which you are an exemplar. But, that doesn't hide what you and those like you really are irrespective of the extent to which you lack the moral courage to admit it even unto yourself.

What I'm an exemplar of is someone who is generous and polite towards someone who is unremittingly mean and spiteful in the sort of things he says about people like me. I want you to stop being abusive towards people like me. I want you to stop calling me a fascist. I am not. I have no interest in violence or in threatening violence, or even suggesting violence might or could be used by others if I don't get what I want.

As an LGBT person I know what it is like to be abused by fascists. As an LGBT person I am infinitely more likely to be put in death camps by fascists than I am to be operating them.

If you call me a fascist then you will totally miss the real ones when they win an election and then declare the people have spoken once and for all and we don't need elections any more.

Basically, I'm pleading with you. Don't be a jerk. There are real fascists. They do real f***ing harm. People like me die when fascists get into power. It's not a f***ing joke any more. Just quit it. It's too serious.

[Vortex2]

Hmm.

Many members seem to have left this forum over the years I have been away.

Sadly they left their nastiness behind and shared it around the remaining stragglers.

[Little John]

I know what a fascist is RT, don't you worry, and their central defining characteristic is not violence, though that often accompanies them due to the lack of a legitimate basis to their power, if they wield it. But, violence accompanies all sorts of political movements. So enough with the Aunt Sally and cheap intersectionalist appeals to emotion. I have at least two friends who are gay and who are even more ardent Brexiteers than me. Are they the "wrong kind" of gays then?

The singular, central definition of fascism is the undemocratic wielding of political power in direct contradiction of the expressed democratic wishes of the majority on the basis of an assumption of inherent superiority.

Which is an entirely accurate description of many in the current mainstream political class who, in straightforward terms, did not get the democratic result from the referendum that they wanted and are consequently doing anything and everything in their power to overturn and ignore that result. It is also an accurate description of those who would support those efforts to usurp what has been the biggest democratic mandate in this nation's history.

And let's not forget here, we are not talking about the majority having voted for something unspeakable. Merely that their country be ruled by popular consent of the people who live in it.

In any event, if the above definition accurately describes you, then you are indeed a fascist. As I said, a very English, polite, bourgeois kind of fascist. But, a fascist nonetheless. If the above definition does not describe you and do not wish to see the result of the referendum overturned, then make it plain here and I will happily reconsider my accusation

On the other hand, if you do wish to see the democratic result of the referendum overturned, you should at least show the courage of your convictions and own what you really are.

[Vortex2]

Grumpy Old Git sitting at home in his cardigan smoking his pipe?

Err no, sitting in a riot waving his Punish The Looters placard.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/h ... 59268.html

Were you there Potemkin Villager ... or were you safe back in Narnia?

Update: Sheesh, the current toxicity here is even making me become acidic!

[UndercoverElephant]

Hmm.

Many members seem to have left this forum over the years I have been away.

Do you know any forums where this is not true? Forums are going the way of usenet newsgroups. Like them, some will survive long after nearly all the others have gone.

[Vortex2]

Hmm.

Many members seem to have left this forum over the years I have been away.

Do you know any forums where this is not true? Forums are going the way of usenet newsgroups. Like them, some will survive long after nearly all the others have gone.

I have no idea.

I now avoid forums as they tend to suck me in.

I don't frequent Facebook or the like.

[woodburner]

Bullshit.

Irrespective of where on the Left/Right continuum someone lies, I merely call anyone who does not believe in or adhere to the principle of democracy a fascist - as objectively evidenced by their words or actions that are designed to undermine or ignore democracy. Because, by definition, that is what such people are. Anti-democratic tendencies leading to the undemocratic assumption of power based on a concomitant assumption of inherent superiority being the singular definition of fascism.

Well, I agree with George. It is "totally counter-productive" to wield the 'fascist' word against non-violent progressives simply because we believe there's more to democracy than a single referendum. We really need to keep the word for real fascists who use real violence and hate to take and keep control. The language we use matters deeply, as I know you agree, because...

Now, of course, we all know that our own, home-grown version of the above is wrapped up in an age-old, class-ridden, bureaucratic, bourgeois, oh-so-British, passive-aggressive politeness of which you are an exemplar. But, that doesn't hide what you and those like you really are irrespective of the extent to which you lack the moral courage to admit it even unto yourself.

What I'm an exemplar of is someone who is generous and polite towards someone who is unremittingly mean and spiteful in the sort of things he says about people like me. I want you to stop being abusive towards people like me. I want you to stop calling me a fascist. I am not. I have no interest in violence or in threatening violence, or even suggesting violence might or could be used by others if I don't get what I want.

As an LGBT person I know what it is like to be abused by fascists. As an LGBT person I am infinitely more likely to be put in death camps by fascists than I am to be operating them.

If you call me a fascist then you will totally miss the real ones when they win an election and then declare the people have spoken once and for all and we don't need elections any more.

Basically, I'm pleading with you. Don't be a jerk. There are real fascists. They do real f***ing harm. People like me die when fascists get into power. It's not a f***ing joke any more. Just quit it. It's too serious.

It has been this way on PS for a few years now Tess. There are a handful of people here who often, if not always, build their case(s) by attacking anyone who questions their “religion�. They heap derision on anyone who questions what they claim is “settled science�, while being unable to see that is an oxymoron.

Having said that, i think there are a few points where we would find it difficult to agree, but I do agree there is every reason to do it politely. Some of us may be right now and again, most of us will be wrong most of the time. It’s difficult to know when those posiions arise.

[UndercoverElephant]

The Labour party is dead. The Conservative party is dead. This reality is just not being acknowledged yet.

A national political realignment is coming.

Meanwhile, those who cannot acknowledge that coming realignment will no doubt continue to busy themselves with their micro political machinations while all around them the world they knew is turning to dust.

The Labour party isn't dead, and I am unconvinced the tory party is dead either, at least not quite yet. The political realignment doesn't require both main parties to be destroyed. The old Liberal Party never quite died, even though it forever lost its status of one of two parties in a two-party system.

It looks like the two-party system is dying, but that both the tory party and labour party will continue to exist, as part of a broader political system. FPTP might also be replaced if that happens, because smaller parties will be able to demand electoral change as the price of coalition government.

If so, then the really important question for both tories and labour, is how to maximise their voter base in the new political landscape. And it looks quite clear that the tory party is going to be split down the middle, but labour is not. Rather, Labour is going to be shaved at both ends, with CuK taking the Blairites and BP taking the most ardent leavers.

I believe a Labour victory is now very likely at the next election, possibly quite a big one. The vast majority of vulnerable seats currently held by labour and the tories are lab-tory marginals. If the brexit party takes twice as many votes from the tories than it does from labour, this helps labour, and the bigger the BP vote, the more it helps labour. If you put the latest national polling figures (for a GE) into an election calculator (with Brexit Party as part of "other"), the outcome in terms of seats is a 1997-style labour landslide.

[UndercoverElephant]

Hmm.

Many members seem to have left this forum over the years I have been away.

Do you know any forums where this is not true? Forums are going the way of usenet newsgroups. Like them, some will survive long after nearly all the others have gone.

I have no idea.

I now avoid forums as they tend to suck me in.

I don't frequent Facebook or the like.

Facebook (and to a lesser extent twitter and reddit) killed most of the forums.

[UndercoverElephant]

LJ...

Think Labour is dead? Ever tried Flavible?

https://flavible.com/politics/map/polls?sid=1765

Look what FPTP does to the Labour seat count, on these figures.

Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_p ... verage.png

[emordnilap]

Do you know any forums where this is not true? Forums are going the way of usenet newsgroups. Like them, some will survive long after nearly all the others have gone.

I have no idea.

I now avoid forums as they tend to suck me in.u

I don't frequent Facebook or the like.

Facebook (and to a lesser extent twitter and reddit) killed most of the forums.

I had to join Shitebook to help admin my band’s account. It is an appalling interface specifically and a dismal experience generally. The sooner it collapses the better.

[Mark]

I know what a fascist is RT, don't you worry, and their central defining characteristic is not violence, though that often accompanies them due to the lack of a legitimate basis to their power, if they wield it. But, violence accompanies all sorts of political movements. So enough with the Aunt Sally and cheap intersectionalist appeals to emotion. I have at least two friends who are gay and who are even more ardent Brexiteers than me. Are they the "wrong kind" of gays then?

The singular, central definition of fascism is the undemocratic wielding of political power in direct contradiction of the expressed democratic wishes of the majority on the basis of an assumption of inherent superiority.

Which is an entirely accurate description of many in the current mainstream political class who, in straightforward terms, did not get the democratic result from the referendum that they wanted and are consequently doing anything and everything in their power to overturn and ignore that result. It is also an accurate description of those who would support those efforts to usurp what has been the biggest democratic mandate in this nation's history.

And let's not forget here, we are not talking about the majority having voted for something unspeakable. Merely that their country be ruled by popular consent of the people who live in it.

In any event, if the above definition accurately describes you, then you are indeed a fascist. As I said, a very English, polite, bourgeois kind of fascist. But, a fascist nonetheless. If the above definition does not describe you and do not wish to see the result of the referendum overturned, then make it plain here and I will happily reconsider my accusation

On the other hand, if you do wish to see the democratic result of the referendum overturned, you should at least show the courage of your convictions and own what you really are.

Every thread, every post, you spout aggressive and confrontational bile.
This isn't conducive to an educated and rational debate, and also doesn't persuade anybody towards your arguments....,
It just offends people...., or makes them quit the forum....

How do others perceive you in your everyday life ?
I wonder if anyone has ever called you a fascist ?