Smart Meters

[careful_eugene]

I thought that the main reason for installing a smart meter was that you could see how much electricity or gas was being used at a given time and identify which appliances cost the most to use. This would then encourage people to either reduce the usage of said appliances or buy more efficient ones which would have the effect of reducing energy bills. I accept that this scenario probably only occurs in a small number of households. The other reason / benefit of having a smart meter would be that no one has to call round to check the meter reading.

Do you suppose that energy companies would accept a lowered level of profit due to a lowered level of consumption from their customers? If you don't, would you accept as inevitable that said energy companies, if they are allowed to, will simply put up the charges per unit of electricity to compensate for said reduction in consumption? If all of the above is true, then what, precisely, is the benefit to customers, overall?

I agree that energy companies will find ways of putting up prices to maintain or increase profit as much as they can. By installing smart meters they can at least claim that they are helping to reduce energy usage. The only tangible benefit for me since having a smart meter installed is that I don't have to shift stuff out of the way in the garage when someone comes round to read it.

[woodburner]

I don’t have to shift stuff. My meter is on a box on the outside wall. The smart meters have so far been a con that benefit the suppliers, I don’t see any change likely.

[adam2]

"Smart meter deadline could be extended"
Not surprising since the programme seems most unlikely to meet the original target date.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45127426

[adam2]

According to reports in a tabloid newspaper, first generation smart meters are about to become obsolete and will presumably require replacement with second generation smart meters.

About 13 million first generation smart meters are installed and about 0.5 million second generation smarter meters.

AFAIK, the first generation meters have no remote cutting off facility, but the second generation smart meters do have this facility.

How long until the third generation of smart meters ?

[Potemkin Villager]

AFAIK, the first generation meters have no remote cutting off facility, but the second generation smart meters do have this facility.

How long until the third generation of smart meters ?

When you say "remote cutting off facility" do ye mean as in disconnecting supply totally (e.g. because of unpaid bill) or disconnecting a heavy load such as a space or immersion heater (e.g. because of high unit costs during high demand periods).

Being able to achieve the latter was one of the reasons I innocently assumed was the rationale of introducing smart meters. It just shows how wrong you can be. What a fiasco.

[adam2]

It is a simple "on or off" control for the electricity supply to the premises.

There is one switch built into the meter, with no provision for cutting off some loads whilst leaving other loads energised.

Any "part cutting off" system would need TWO switches in the meter, and TWO consumer units, one for high priority loads and a second one for lower priority loads.
AND some means of stopping consumers reconnecting everything to the high priority supply.

[BritDownUnder]

Smart meters will become a fiasco when someone like Russian hackers can work out how to turn off the power supply to large numbers of properties remotely.

[adam2]

Smart meters will become a fiasco when someone like Russian hackers can work out how to turn off the power supply to large numbers of properties remotely.

Yes, I perceive some risk, not JUST of hacking but also of incompetence/failed upgrades/value engineering.

Just look at the success of other large government IT projects, or in the private sector at the number of high profile IT failures in the banking industry.

[Potemkin Villager]

Yes it does seem to make the whole notion of a "smart grid" somewhat of a wishful pipe dream. I presume the cutting off function would be achieved by some form of RF signalling over the distribution network.

Somebody please tell me that it is not proposed that all these "smart" meters would be connected to the internet!

I mentioned smart meters to the utility technician who was reattaching our analogue Siemens meter which had been threatening to fall off the wall in our kitchen. His view was that it was widely considered that smart meters were much more trouble than they were worth. He said that in part this is due to the fact that ones they had tested had incidents of the electronics failing due to spikes and surges.

I think what he had in mind was that if a meter did get zapped the consumer would be in no rush to report it.....

[Vortex2]

South Africa uses smart meters to control demand on their crappy network - especially for water heaters.

It's strange that mostly middle class areas get hit - but Soweto, Alexandra etc usually keep their power.

[emordnilap]

Somebody please tell me that it is not proposed that all these "smart" meters would be connected to the internet!

It's possible to use existing electricity networks for the internet. ESB in Ireland is rolling it out.

Also, my wireless mast is on a remote shed and feeds into a device plugged into a socket.

This is the device I'm using.

[adam2]

Whilst I stand to be corrected, I am not convinced that the remote control of electric water heaters in South Africa is via smart meters.

My understanding is that the remote control is either wired, or uses signals superimposed on the mains supply.

The wired system uses an extra wire distributed with the main power circuit, this operates a relay in the consumers premises by which water heaters are remotely turned off at times of high demand. Known as "pilot wire control"
Usually only one or two different signals are possible over the same wire.
Also used in some places for street lighting control.

The alternative system requires no extra wires, but sends a signal superimposed on the normal mains supply, this is received and operates a relay to control water heaters, street lights or other loads.
Up to about a dozen different signals can be sent for different purposes.

This system called Thorn Cyclocontrol is used in the city of London for central control of street lighting, and also within the Barbican center flats for off peak electric heating control.
Otherwise it is little used in the UK.

[BritDownUnder]

With regard to remote control of loads this is fairly common in both Australia and NZ. In Australia you pay less for remote control of your immersion heater (in fact any 'controlled load' such as pool pumps for swimming pools and underfloor resistive heating too). This is fed via a separate meter in the house, I used to have it but now it is incorporated via a 'smart' meter. How the meter is 'told' to turn off or on I don't know. One enterprising electrician at our company also supplied a power socket from his hot water heater circuit which had a neon which glowed when the socket was switched on and powered up (this happens a lot in Australia on Sunday afternoons as well as weekday nights) and this would signal his dutiful wife to then tumble dry all the washing for a third of the cost as normal presumably when he was too busy watching the footy or rugby.

New Zealand has various systems of controlling the same type to loads. One is to use a 'ripple' on the power cable itself using a frequency of around 3000 Hz which would be detected/filtered from the 50 Hz mains frequency by equipment in your house. Another method was to use a separate 'pilot' (as mentioned by Adam) wire as a signal cable. This system is supposedly falling into disrepair.

From memory in the UK the Long Wave radio 4 transmission system (which I understand has now finished) was used to turn on and off 'Economy 7' supplies.

[adam2]

If you, or someone whom you know, illegally removes the DNO cut out fuse, in order to replace the consumer unit, be aware that a smart meter will detect this and rat on you!

https://communities.theiet.org/discussi ... 1037/24790

Link to another forum.

Not of course that anyone on these forums would dream of such illegal and potentially dangerous behaviour