Brexit process

[stumuz1]

Titanium dioxide doesn't seem a great example of a carcinogen.

Agreed.

I've got better examples.

Talc

Flour

Diesel

Sudan red ( gives the oven baked colour on microwavable ready meals)

London Purple ( prolongs the flavour on your apples)

The EU has a good record of imposing what big business lobbyists like:

Yes, the working groups that Mark referred to are obliquely political. National interests and all that.

[stumuz1]

All fake news....., no grain of truth ?

On the chemical front, it was mere puff.

"They push back on every single decision," said a person sitting in on meetings in ECHA, who asked for anonymity as the discussions are confidential"

I'm all for these meetings to be made public. Why are they not?..... Lobbyists.

[Mark]

Titanium dioxide doesn't seem a great example of a carcinogen. Hasn't it been in toothpaste, yellow mustard etc for decades?

The EU has a good record of imposing what big business lobbyists like: CE, EMC, ROHS, compact flourescents etc. Just like the UK gov with industry trade regs.

ECHA links titanium dioxide to cancer:
https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/eur ... 57.article

It's nanoparticles that cause the problem - so the impact will be on companies that either manufacture titanium dioxide or use it to make other products (paints, toothpaste etc.).

[Mark]

All fake news....., no grain of truth ?

On the chemical front, it was mere puff.

"They push back on every single decision," said a person sitting in on meetings in ECHA, who asked for anonymity as the discussions are confidential"

I'm all for these meetings to be made public. Why are they not?..... Lobbyists.

I would venture that REACH is the major global driver for assessing the toxicology of chemicals (happy for stumuz to automatically disagree)
Every (registered) substance is going to be assessed at some point - many have never been looked at before, including some very common ones - surely a good thing ?
A very few will be assigned as a SVHC, which has major implications - UK industry will still need to take note of this when we're out of the EU....

Do I agree that the ECHA meetings should be public - of course, I'm all for openness
If we get a Hard Brexit and end up with a virtually mirror image UK version of ECHA, do I think their meetings would be held in public......, who knows ?

[kenneal - lagger]

Why should we not cooperate with our neighbours, post Brexit, Mark? We did before we joined the EC so why not in future?

[Little John]

Get ready for some serious hand waving and whataboutary Ken

[kenneal - lagger]

I'm fed up with the naivety of Remainers on Facebook so I'm withdrawing and hiding most of their posts on my page, Steve.

They completely ignore "Ever closer Union" and its implications: they completely ignore the fact that when we are forced into the Euro we will see austerity like we have not known; they tell me that the EU is directed by the people; they tell me that as LibDems they would vote against joining the Euro after I have told them that they would be given a treaty option of joining the Euro or leaving the EU - so why object to leaving the EU now? They are either naive, daft or disingenuous or all three at once.

Arguing with religious fanatics is never worthwhile. But then they would say the same thing about Brexiteers. That is why we have so much of a problem.

[Mark]

Why should we not cooperate with our neighbours, post Brexit, Mark? We did before we joined the EC so why not in future?

No reason at all - in fact it's absolutely essential
I'm all for negotiated, reasoned debate, leading to compromise based solutions
It's polarised, extreme views (often seen on this board) that lead to discord and confrontation.....

I struggle to see how setting up a mirror image of ECHA/REACH makes any sense - we'll just end up paying for another massive bureaucracy with identical (or very similar) outcomes, but we'll also still need to comply with the existing REACH system to trade with the EU.... I'm sure that trade will continue - but suspect we'll just become much less competitive.....

[kenneal - lagger]

I'm becoming ever more convinced that "competition" or Globalisation by another name and the "free" trade deals which result is something which we should avoid where possible. Globalisation and competition have reduced wages in the Uk to poverty levels while it has enabled companies to offshore profits and avoid paying taxes. True globalisation would also have reduced our accommodation costs which would have meant food prices would also have fallen and that the lower wages would have been affordable.

Globalisation and "competition" have allowed an increase in the share of profits going to senior managers, owners and shareholders by reducing the share of the workers and lower management. Globalisation has allowed the kleptocracy and their companies to avoid taxation and put the whole of this burden on the working and middle classes further reducing their spending power. There has been a worldwide, in the developed countries at least, hollowing out of the middle and working classes to such an extent that the whole capitalist system is now at risk. The EU has done nothing to stop this.

I am convinced that countries should be able to protect their own industry and workers as the living costs of workers vary from country to country. If this were formalised and renegotiated on a regular basis that could form the basis of an international trade agreement that could work more fairly. It would stop the wasteful practice of moving production from one low cost country to another even lower cost one every few years.

The current system, based on debt, will fold in the few years so the above will probably never come about.

[Mark]

I'm becoming ever more convinced that "competition" or Globalisation by another name and the "free" trade deals which result is something which we should avoid where possible.

Isolationism ??

Globalisation and competition have reduced wages in the Uk to poverty levels while it has enabled companies to offshore profits and avoid paying taxes. True globalisation would also have reduced our accommodation costs which would have meant food prices would also have fallen and that the lower wages would have been affordable.

Try the 'wages' paid in less developed countries.....,
Most UK workers still do relatively well...., average salary £27K ?
Agree that hiding profits offshore and tax avoidance need addressing....

Globalisation and "competition" have allowed an increase in the share of profits going to senior managers, owners and shareholders by reducing the share of the workers and lower management. Globalisation has allowed the kleptocracy and their companies to avoid taxation and put the whole of this burden on the working and middle classes further reducing their spending power. There has been a worldwide, in the developed countries at least, hollowing out of the middle and working classes to such an extent that the whole capitalist system is now at risk. The EU has done nothing to stop this.

Probably true - all the fault of the EU though ?

I am convinced that countries should be able to protect their own industry and workers as the living costs of workers vary from country to country. If this were formalised and renegotiated on a regular basis that could form the basis of an international trade agreement that could work more fairly. It would stop the wasteful practice of moving production from one low cost country to another even lower cost one every few years.

How much UK industry is actually UK owned.....?
Whether we like it or not, it's all inter-connected....
Plus, Maggie sold pretty much everything British that wasn't nailed down....
Look at the recent news from Nissan. Honda, Sony, Panasonic etc. The decisions aren't made in Sunderland or Swindon, they're being made in Japan....

The current system, based on debt, will fold in the few years so the above will probably never come about.

Agree.

[Little John]

.... Most UK workers still do relatively well...., average salary £27K ?....

And there we have it, folks, in a nutshell.

You haven't got a f***ing clue have you mate.

27k is based on the mean, which is monstrously skewed by a few obscene salaries at the top end of the distribution. With such a non-Gaussian distribution, even the median will be skewed to some extent.

The only average that will give any kind of realistic picture of what most people, most of the time, earn in this country is the mode. Which for the sake of brevity, can be chunked into 5k blocks.

The modal average full time wage in this country is 15-20k. And that is before tax and national insurance have been deducted. In other words, the most commonly earned full time wage in this country is the minimum wage.

Though, of course, you will be hard pushed to find the modal average salary online in any of the official stats.

I wonder why?.....

[kenneal - lagger]

............27k is based on the mean, which is monstrously skewed by a few obscene salaries at the top end of the distribution. With such a non-Gaussian distribution, even the median will be skewed to some extent. ........

Agree.

The mean has been going up steadily for the last 40 or 50 years while the average worker has been getting poorer/having less disposable salary. Skewed?

[Little John]

Skewed means not accurate/not straight/off centre Ken

[kenneal - lagger]

Skewed can also mean "biased" so the mean figure has a built in bias if you're trying to cover a drop in the low end salaries and a rise in the top end ones.

[careful_eugene]

............27k is based on the mean, which is monstrously skewed by a few obscene salaries at the top end of the distribution. With such a non-Gaussian distribution, even the median will be skewed to some extent. ........

Agree.

The mean has been going up steadily for the last 40 or 50 years while the average worker has been getting poorer/having less disposable salary. Skewed?

We don't have big employers with thousands of people any more, up until the 1980's early 1990's in my area most people (men mainly) worked down a pit or in an industry directly related to this and jobs were reasonably well paid. Jobs were pretty much for life and only 1 adult needed to go to work in each family. Most heavy industry has disappeared and all we have left for the majority is call centres supermarkets and car showrooms. I'm not saying that all changes are bad, (we all know how bad mining and burning coal is) but the negative effects have fallen disproportionately on ordinary people.