Brexit process

[RevdTess]

I'm coming round to thinking that we should have a second vote; deal or no deal?

I heard someone on the radio suggesting we could go with May's deal on a trial basis with a public vote after 4 years to see whether we should stick with the deal, revert to no deal or rejoin the EU. Totally infeasible of course but it would have resolved the issue of the permanent leap into the potentially awful unknown for me. If we can change our minds after a few years of 'suck it and see' I'd be totally up for experimenting with Leave.

[Little John]

From the awful Grauniad a view from " 'spoons" that explains a lot about the love affair with no deal brexit.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... eal-brexit

"The gender aspect of Brexit is still too overlooked. Of the people gathered in that Wetherspoons, 90% were men. In a recent YouGov poll, support for no deal was put at 22%, but whereas 28% of men were no-dealers, among women the figure was a paltry 16%.

There is something at play here similar to the belligerent masculinity channelled by Donald Trump: a yearning for all-or-nothing politics, enemies and endless confrontation, and an aggressive nostalgia. Some of the latter is shamelessly misogynistic, part of a macho bigotry that harks back to hierarchies of privilege that linger on, and blurs into racism.

But there is also an element that ought to attract empathy: a yearning for a world in which men were steelworkers, coalminers and welders, and a desperate quest for something – anything – that might allow their successors to do the same."

So this is what you are now reduced to is it? Promulgating vague insinuations by the Guardian of Brexit being due to white working class "gammons" bemoaning their loss of "privilege."

You really are pathetic.

[kenneal - lagger]

We wouldn't get a deal like that from the EU and even if we did it on spec they would require us to join the euro as part of any entry deal as all new countries have to do now. That would be economic suicide for us as we rely on the backstop (that word again) of being able to print our own money to bale out our massive banking sector every decade or so. The Italians will have to try to do that in the near future but with the Euro budgetary constraints they won't be able to afford to do it.

That is not to mention the imbalance between our economy and the German one which is the main driver of ECB financial policy. All the Med economies fall foul of this imbalance which is why they are having so many problems and Germany is profiting, thank you very much.

[RevdTess]

So this is what you are now reduced to is it? Vague insinuations of Brexit being due to white working class "gammons" bemoaning their loss of "privilege."

I've definitely had this argument quoted at me, notably by a colleague who voted leave because he felt that working class men had been particularly excluded from the professional political status quo and that middle class women had essentially taken over and feminised politics to the extent that such men had lost their sense of purpose and role in life.

I found this deeply worrying because it painted a picture of large numbers of men who just totally resented the growing power of women and minorities in public life. As a member of the middle class 'elite' I had been revelling in the latter and very much unaware of how excluded men were now feeling. It was the first time I realised Brexit was about more than resurgent xenophobia.

[Potemkin Villager]

.......to do the same."

So this is what you are now reduced to is it? Vague insinuations of Brexit being due to white working class "gammons" bemoaning their loss of "privilege."

You really are pathetic.

No it is not a vague insinuation that Breexit mania has deep roots, it is you who are pathetic the way you twist everything. That it doesn't take much to get ye off your perch and into attack dog mode at the slightest provocation speaks volumes.

You will be trying to tell us next that some of your best friends are women.

On balance I really would not want to find myself in a broken down lift with you.


(I've edited this to hopefully make sense of the quotes - If I've got it wrong let me know or even edit it yourself - Kenneal - admin)

[kenneal - lagger]

Tess, my Brexit take is not about xenophobia and if it is what is wrong about a bit of pride in your nation? As *** said earlier it is quite alright for the Welsh to complain that English people are changing the names of houses in Wales to an English equivalent as that is apparently not Welsh xenophobia and reverse xenophobia on the part of the English "middle class" who sympathise with the Welsh complaint but not working class English people who wish to keep their culture?

Is the Welsh insisting that everyone in a school in Wales be taught the Welsh language not a touch xenophobic? If so why do people not pillory them for it like they do the English working class, or any one English for that matter?

[Snail]

So this is what you are now reduced to is it? Vague insinuations of Brexit being due to white working class "gammons" bemoaning their loss of "privilege."

I've definitely had this argument quoted at me, notably by a colleague who voted leave because he felt that working class men had been particularly excluded from the professional political status quo and that middle class women had essentially taken over and feminised politics to the extent that such men had lost their sense of purpose and role in life.

I found this deeply worrying because it painted a picture of large numbers of men who just totally resented the growing power of women and minorities in public life. As a member of the middle class 'elite' I had been revelling in the latter and very much unaware of how excluded men were now feeling. It was the first time I realised Brexit was about more than resurgent xenophobia.

Is it not possible that men being concerned about the growing power of women and minorities is valid? Afterall, women now are effectively in control of the family unit - with larger societal consequences. A man's life can be ruined extremely fast; from something to nothing.

Society helps children first, with women a very close second. Men..not so much.

Maybe with their changing role, women as a group need to grow up a little and realize they can't have everything. Is equality wanted? Same with 'minorities'.

Little to do with brexit.

____

And maybe men as a group need to change of course but society and women seems relunctant for this.

____

Just a thought but people (men) are saying politics is now feminised because the female (its safe to say I think) is more concerned with appearance. Appearance is more important than reality that is. Brexit debacle is full of deceptions for example.

[stumuz1]

REACH is the thorny issue - you've nicely avoided that....

REACH is not a thorny issue. REACH is a very basic creating a market, piece of law.

R= doomsday book of substances ( periodic table 'aint that big)

E= A bunch of Bureaucrats scratch their collective chins in Helsinki who decide if you can place your substance on the market

A= The commission decides which German/French chemical company it wishes to monopolise certain substances. And then passes a law banning rest of the world chemical companies getting their substances onto the EU market.

Its not that difficult. Even tho' it's morphed into the largest, most complex body of law in human history.

Then there's the equivalents to REACH being introduced in South Korea, Taiwan, Vietnam, and soon to be in Turkey, Brazil......and hard-Brexit UK....and ??

Well why wouldn't you pass a law that nicks the publicly available data base and use it to keep EU registered chemicals out?

It would be much easier if the whole world could agree on all regulations, but not in our lifetime....

Like the GHS?
http://www.hse.gov.uk/chemical-classifi ... es-ghs.htm

It's not just the EU that operate cartels....., there's a reason why Mauritania is the only country in the world that trades solely on WTO rules.....

Yes, because its economy is mostly desert agriculture and only opened its first port in 1986.
Your point is?

[stumuz1]

Is the Welsh insisting that everyone in a school in Wales be taught the Welsh language not a touch xenophobic?

Slightly disagree with you on this one Ken.

Welsh is basically an Iron age language. Probably older.

Iron age Milton Keynes or London would have spoken a form of what is now Welsh. Because of Roman/Viking/ Saxon invasion and conquest the language changed.
Its not unreasonable that a language older than Aramaic should continue to be taught.

[RevdTess]

Is the Welsh insisting that everyone in a school in Wales be taught the Welsh language not a touch xenophobic? If so why do people not pillory them for it like they do the English working class, or any one English for that matter?

I think this is a similar question to why women are allowed to denigrate men fairly freely in society but if men denigrate women they're roundly criticised.

There's something about where the power lies. If you're in a minority or you're part of a group that is oppressed by the powers that be (or feel yourself to be so), then attacking the oppressor in some way is seen as much more morally justified than when you're the ones with all the power.

Typically, in our nation, it's Englishmen who've had the power, over Scotland, over Wales, over Ireland, over women. It may not feel like it any more, especially for the working class, who are as oppressed and exploited as anyone, but everyone else still feels like Englishmen are generally the bullies on the block and therefore fair game for resistance.

What I've seen with Brexit is an alliance between the modern aristocrats like Farage, Johnson and Rees-Mogg (who resent losing their privilege to the middle class) with the working class (who never had power but are treated as if they did).

As far as I'm concerned, Brexit is part of a cultural war, a fight for cultural power and freedom. It's only one battle though. 'Take back control' means a lot more than bringing sovereignty back to parliament. It also means freedom from being controlled by 'political correctness' and other constraints that civilisation has forced on people. It's not surprising that so many people want this, but as a woman I'm just a bit terrified at what's being unleashed. Political correctness kept me safe.

[Little John]

.....Political correctness kept me safe.

No it didn't. Or, at least, not directly, if it did at all. Because that was never its purpose. To any extent it did in the very early days, that quickly became subsumed under a larger ideological agenda.

[Lord Beria3]

In my family the ardent brexiteer isn't me ( I was a soft/reluctant) brexiteer but my Mum!

Tess I have no idea what you are talking about. Many women voted for Brexit for the same reasons as men. Not sure why would you feel terrified... strikes me as a bit paranoid myself.

I'm terrified of the looming prospect of economic collapse, potential pandemic and mass migration from a heating tropics because they could have direct and grave consequences for my life. Your fears are irrational and identity driven.

[jonny2mad]

Is the Welsh insisting that everyone in a school in Wales be taught the Welsh language not a touch xenophobic? If so why do people not pillory them for it like they do the English working class, or any one English for that matter?

I think this is a similar question to why women are allowed to denigrate men fairly freely in society but if men denigrate women they're roundly criticised.

There's something about where the power lies. If you're in a minority or you're part of a group that is oppressed by the powers that be (or feel yourself to be so), then attacking the oppressor in some way is seen as much more morally justified than when you're the ones with all the power.

Typically, in our nation, it's Englishmen who've had the power, over Scotland, over Wales, over Ireland, over women. It may not feel like it any more, especially for the working class, who are as oppressed and exploited as anyone, but everyone else still feels like Englishmen are generally the bullies on the block and therefore fair game for resistance.

What I've seen with Brexit is an alliance between the modern aristocrats like Farage, Johnson and Rees-Mogg (who resent losing their privilege to the middle class) with the working class (who never had power but are treated as if they did).

As far as I'm concerned, Brexit is part of a cultural war, a fight for cultural power and freedom. It's only one battle though. 'Take back control' means a lot more than bringing sovereignty back to parliament. It also means freedom from being controlled by 'political correctness' and other constraints that civilisation has forced on people. It's not surprising that so many people want this, but as a woman I'm just a bit terrified at what's being unleashed. Political correctness kept me safe.

you assume that women and minority's dont have more power in our society, you could go on youtube and look at MGTOW basically males avoiding marriage because they feel the system is designed against them . theres a whole field of men and some women who feel that society is controlled by women or by people who pander to women . Again with minority's in the uk we have had two systems of law with the law turning a blind eye to industrial scale sexual abuse when the abuser were from a minority and the victim white British this has gone back to the 1970s . if you can find me any racial attacks directed to any ethnic minority on the scale of grooming I'd be interested to know about that .


I dont think political correctness comes from civilisation I think it comes from cultural Marxism, and its about silencing people who complain about their invasion and destruction

[kenneal - lagger]

If you look back into history male physical power ruled so women mainly took a back seat except for a few very strong Queens and a few women elsewhere. Men did much of the physical labour, or thought that they did, and women did the more homely physical tasks. Men did the fighting and women were the receivers of much of that violence.

With the advance of the fossil fuel age the amount of physical work has been much reduced by the introduction of machines for both men and women and it has been even further reduced by the Health and Safety Act which has made the maximum loads to be lifted more suitable for women. As the fossil fuel age has advanced so has the social position of women as the amount of manual housework has been reduced. More technical and administrative jobs have gone to women and the capitalist system has ensured that women too can be, and are, exploited in the workforce by making extensive child care available, be it in schools or nurseries. Women have seen this exploitation as an opportunity to bring them into line with men and grasped it with both hands even though they have no option economically in most cases.

With the coming regression into the iron age caused the limits to growth and climate change women will probably regress as well to be the main child carer/house keeper rather than at work, almost equal, and child carer/house keeper as well. Jobs and housework will become more physical again, the husband as physical protector will become more prevalent as well. So we will end up where we started or maybe almost where we started. Man will get his testosterone fuelled ego back and all will be happy again, or not depending on where you stand in the social scale.

I know what I have said is a rather naive representation of the history of male over female but I hope it gives a rough representation of the facts, like them or not. What I think that I am saying is that political correctness comes from the Fossil Fuel Age.

[vtsnowedin]

The even shorter version goes "God made men and women, Sam Colt made them equal."