Brexit process

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 09 Jan 2019, 15:24

Little John wrote:
UndercoverElephant wrote:
stumuz1 wrote:Wouldn't worry too much about last nights theatre in parliament.
It is beyond theatre now. Serious constitutional crisis developing. Government vs Parliament, with the Speaker on Parliament's side.
I have said this a million times. But, the ruling class are determined to have their way and the only way this is going to end is with civil unrest and bloodshed leading to Brexit happening or civil unrest and bloodshed and Brexit not happening. But, civil unrest and bloodshed is looking to be inevitable now either way. Our ruling class have now ensured that.

Steve, "the ruling class" are currently involved in a civil war. There isn't any "their way".

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 09 Jan 2019, 15:34

Ok, fair point. But, the ruling class' dominant flank in terms of the total power they wield is the neo-liberal-globalist flank. It is them to whom I refer.

stumuz1 · Post by **stumuz1** » 09 Jan 2019, 17:20

PS_RalphW wrote: Why ? We had a referendum on the EU 40 years ago. We voted to stay in

Agreed.

And what happened? We implemented the vote.

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 09 Jan 2019, 17:33

Steve, from what I can see the Kleptocracy is split on this. Some industrialists and some in the city seem to want to stay while the press barons, the US backed financiers and health companies seem to want us to leave. The Remainers seem as confused over this as we are.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 09 Jan 2019, 17:53

I'm not confused Ken.

1) I am a democrat

2) I think that democracy in particular becomes ever weaker and, at a more general level, the risk of political corruption becomes ever greater, the larger the unit of human organization. Consequently, the nation-state exists for a reason. And the reason is that this is the level at which, given the current state of technology, human organizational structures remain reasonably sustainable/stable over time. Which is to say, not very. But, that's as good as it gets.

3) Any argument about increases in technological complexity allowing for increases in the complexity of human organizational structures, in turn allowing for ever larger said structures are flawed. Primarily, as a consequence of the beginning of the Long Emergency that is now clearly underway. In other words, this is as complex as it gets folks.

4) As the world turns to shit on the back of that Long Emergency I mentioned, each nation state must look to it's own self-sufficient integrity and stability first and seek to "save the world" a distant second.

5) All of the above may be said irrespective of the particular internal political arrangements on the Left/Right spectrum within any nation. For myself, I am a leftist and so I know what I want this country to look like internally. But, that is a battle for another day.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 09 Jan 2019, 20:03

PS_RalphW wrote:The latest yougov poll confirms what has been evident for some time, that public opinion is turning decisively against brexit in either of forms on offer, May's deal or no deal.

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/c ... Poll_w.pdf

This gives a remain majority at least twice as big as the leave majority in the referendum.

It is also clear that it is Labour voters who have changed their minds, because they now realise that Brexit will hurt them far more than the mostly wealthy Tory voters. Immigration will not fall significantly. Jobs will be lost in the remaining factories in the north. Inflation will be high, especially food.

To talk of a second referendum as being anti-democratic, or even the ravings a of fascists, are the futile ravings of angry old men who know they have lost the argument and are trying to intimidate or drown out the dueprocess of democracy.

I see you you are just making shit up again. Or, at least, spouting shit that is not relevant.

As it happens, I happen to think nearly every official poll conducted are bullshit from start to finish. But, since we are talking polls;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics- ... nel=social

1) Neither Remainers nor Leavers support May's deal. Least of all, Remainers. Which puts to bed the lie that May is delivering on Brexit for the 52% who voted to Leave.

2) If the deal is voted down, the largest single preference is for a "no deal" outcome with a "referendum" on "deal" or "remain" in second place. Furthermore, the lead of "no deal" over "referendum" on "deal" or "remain" has increased in recent weeks.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 09 Jan 2019, 20:35

So, a party political broadcast by the Conservatives on this evening - sounding very general electiony

Lord Beria3 · Post by **Lord Beria3** » 09 Jan 2019, 20:37

Keep it up little John!

Your smashing your critics on this forum.

cubes · Post by **cubes** » 09 Jan 2019, 21:43

He's just talking shit... as usual. I'm glad I didn't look at the forum over xmas as his replies just wind me up, not really listening and pumping out "riot riot riot" over and over again. The government, whether labour or tory will not help the little people, they NEVER do. They all have their vested interests and cronies to help, even corbyn. Imo the EU has helped to keep this tendency in check.

On another note, imo, there will not be wide-scale riots if we remain. There WILL be riots by those same people you're talking about if we no deal brexit, once they realise that, for them, nothing improves. In fact, may get worse. I look forward to them the working-class brexit supporters stringing JRM and Boris up from a lamp-post and I'm sure 99% of the country will by then agree with me.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 09 Jan 2019, 22:20

Little John wrote:So, a party political broadcast by the Conservatives on this evening - sounding very general electiony

Odds of a general election skyrocketed today. Tories are seriously running out of other options. Her deal won't get through parliament, and it is looking like parliament will not tolerate no deal.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 09 Jan 2019, 23:26

Then we will get UKIP on steroids. Or worse.

Lord Beria3 · Post by **Lord Beria3** » 10 Jan 2019, 08:16

Bring it on!

Any of you watch the ch4 4 tv drama on Brexit.

I thought it was brilliant. The emotional scenes in the focus groups were spot on.

Anyone who thinks we can just rewind the clock back to pre June 2016 is deluded.

A failure to deliver Brexit opens the door to a mass movement which flirts with a rejection of democracy itself. Remainers- be careful what you wish for!!!

Mark · Post by **Mark** » 10 Jan 2019, 08:48

Little John wrote:4) As the world turns to shit on the back of that Long Emergency I mentioned, each nation state must look to it's own self-sufficient integrity and stability first and seek to "save the world" a distant second.

We all know that the UK can't be self sufficient with our current level of population and the resources available....
To get there, would need a substantial reduction in population (Brexit, or worse ?) or a substantial reduction in living standards or both....

The reality is that the world is totally interconnected and getting more so all the time..., even N. Korea relies on China and will open up eventually....
There is no way that we can go back to living on our little island in splendid isolation, protected from all those nasty foreigners....

It's not about 'saving' the world, it's about being part of the world....

Post by **adam2** » 10 Jan 2019, 09:37

No modern nation can be entirely self sufficient, but I feel that the UK should work towards reducing population, and reducing reliance on imports.

No matter how the Brexit shambles ends, the availability of cheap imports of food and fuel seems unlikely to continue and it would be prudent to prepare for this on both a personal and on a national level.

Returning more specifically to Brexit, leaving the EU wont in itself prohibit trade and imports.

careful_eugene · Post by **careful_eugene** » 10 Jan 2019, 10:31

Lord Beria3 wrote: Anyone who thinks we can just rewind the clock back to pre June 2016 is deluded.

A failure to deliver Brexit opens the door to a mass movement which flirts with a rejection of democracy itself. Remainers- be careful what you wish for!!!

I don't think anyone believes we can go back to pre June 2016, whatever happens a large number of people are going to be pissed off on either one side or the other. Life is unlikely to improve for those who are currently suffering the most under this government regardless of the outcome in March.