We haven't been "sold" anything. And Brexit is merely the beginning.Mark wrote:We'll soon see whether being outside the EU improves our economic lot or not. If, as nearly all businesses are predicting, a hard Brexit does bring hard economic times, the impacts will be felt hardest by those at the bottom of the pile.Little John wrote:I guess I would just add this. For a large portion of remainers, it is partly about economics, since being in the EU has been a benefit to them economically and also in terms of making their lives more interesting - eg travel and cultural exchange.
For a large portion of the leavers, however, there has been no economic gain to being in the EU and, with mass immigration of low skilled workers, quite the opposite.
Plus, the double whammy is that we move away from the EU's stance on social protection, worker protection, environmental protection etc. If the economy turns bad, do we trust a UK government to protect these areas ?
The 'mass immigration', that you talk about mostly comes from outside the EU anyway. HMG has always had control of that (supposedly) - but to what effect ? I read that one of India's conditions for negotiating one of these mythical Trade Deals was easier access to Visas for their citizens.... So are we just going to swap EU low skilled workers for non-EU slightly higher skilled workers....?
I just don't think that Brexit will do 'what it says on the tin' for the UK's low skilled workers....
We'll see, but I think they've been sold a pup.
Brexit process
Moderator: Peak Moderation
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Little John
Well, irrespective of Brexit, the net energy cliff is coming. That's what this forum is about, remember? Peak oil and ERoI. There will be blood and misery beyond any historic precedent. When things get rough, I plan to even a couple of scores then catch the bus quietly and with some dignity. I'm not sure how you relish the coming carnage so, LJ, you might think that you are 'more dangerous' than most but that will not save you.
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Little John
Oh aye, so what's the scores you plan to even under the cover of social unrest then big man?leroy wrote:Well, irrespective of Brexit, the net energy cliff is coming. That's what this forum is about, remember? Peak oil and ERoI. There will be blood and misery beyond any historic precedent. When things get rough, I plan to even a couple of scores then catch the bus quietly and with some dignity. I'm not sure how you relish the coming carnage so, LJ, you might think that you are 'more dangerous' than most but that will not save you.
Me... I intend to knit my self even more tightly into my tight knit community than I already am.
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UndercoverElephant
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I do not believe this is true. Not with Momentum in charge of the Labour Party. If those at the bottom of the pile feel the impacts the hardest, the result will be a hard left Labour government.Mark wrote: If, as nearly all businesses are predicting, a hard Brexit does bring hard economic times, the impacts will be felt hardest by those at the bottom of the pile.
No and no. Immigration from outside the EU tends to be either useful and/or illegal. HMG never realistically had control of EU immigration, because the relevant laws were as about as usable as Article 50.The 'mass immigration', that you talk about mostly comes from outside the EU anyway. HMG has always had control of that (supposedly) - but to what effect ?
That depends what "easier" means. We have a lot of universities India would like Indian students to attend, for example. We do have something to offer on this, which would be mutually beneficial.I read that one of India's conditions for negotiating one of these mythical Trade Deals was easier access to Visas for their citizens.... So are we just going to swap EU low skilled workers for non-EU slightly higher skilled workers....?
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careful_eugene
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Do you think that brexiteers will be happy seeing more brown people coming here?UndercoverElephant wrote:
That depends what "easier" means. We have a lot of universities India would like Indian students to attend, for example. We do have something to offer on this, which would be mutually beneficial.I read that one of India's conditions for negotiating one of these mythical Trade Deals was easier access to Visas for their citizens.... So are we just going to swap EU low skilled workers for non-EU slightly higher skilled workers....?
Paid up member of the Petite bourgeoisie
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Little John
Why don't you crawl back under your f***ing stone with your implied racism slur against 17.5 million people. Leavers have had over two years of this shit.careful_eugene wrote:Do you think that brexiteers will be happy seeing more brown people coming here?UndercoverElephant wrote:
That depends what "easier" means. We have a lot of universities India would like Indian students to attend, for example. We do have something to offer on this, which would be mutually beneficial.I read that one of India's conditions for negotiating one of these mythical Trade Deals was easier access to Visas for their citizens.... So are we just going to swap EU low skilled workers for non-EU slightly higher skilled workers....?
You think we will forgive?
You think we will forget?
Last edited by Little John on 23 Dec 2018, 22:13, edited 4 times in total.
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Little John
This:
You think we don't see you for what you are?
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics ... heresa-mayRemainers fury over Brexit fuelled by CONTEMPT for working classes
You think we don't see you for what you are?
ACADEMICS have argued that Remainers’ anti-Brexit fury is fuelled by a deep-seated contempt for Britain’s working class who they feel should NEVER have been allowed a say in the future of the nation.
Brexiteer and historian Robert Tombs said his academic group called Briefings for Brexit has unearthed evidence that those protesting most vehemently over Britain’s EU referendum result have nothing but scorn for the nation’s largely white working class, and the fact their decision has so clearly shaped the future of the country. Mr Tombs says Remainers are motivated by “identity politics� and associate Brexit with the working class and are arrogantly taking their fury out on Leave campaigners because they simply cannot get over the fact those deemed insignificant by comparison have carved out the UK’s future without them. He contends this superiority complex is the real reason behind the “Remainer Revolt�, rather than any real love for Brussels. Mr Tombs told the Daily Telegraph: “Hard-line Remainers... have been and are willing to push their campaign beyond legitimate politics as previously understood. “First, they have encouraged foreign authorities to resist the policy of the UK, and have thereby done much to sabotage that policy. Secondly, they have attempted to de-legitimise legal votes, using arguments that would take us back 150 years and more – essentially, that ordinary people are incapable of taking a major national decision and that they must therefore be overruled.�
He added: “We have noted that civil servants detest disruption. We have suggested that the issue has become one of ‘identity politics’, with vehement Remainers motivated less by affection for the EU than by contempt for those they think support Brexit – above all the white working class.�
Mr Tombs goes on to refer to hard-line Remainer Matthew Parris, who in an interview with pro-EU magazine The Spectator compared Brexiteers with a “mob�. Mr Tombs says Remainers are motivated by “identity politics� and that “The penny dropped when I read the vocal Remainer and former MP Matthew Parris in the latest Spectator.
“For Parriss, Brexit means ‘trusting the people’: ‘I don’t,’ he writes. ‘Never have and never will.’ Rejecting the idea of ‘an unseen bond between parliament and people’, he sees its job as curbing ‘the instincts of the mob’. The enlightened elite must govern by subterfuge if necessary.�
He added: “The Remain-Leave debate is no longer primarily about the EU, if it ever was. It has become, as Parris disarmingly admits, about who governs, and by what right.�
Last edited by Little John on 24 Dec 2018, 08:58, edited 1 time in total.
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UndercoverElephant
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UndercoverElephant
- Posts: 13502
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Little John
I've just been reading something from Huxley:
"The perfect dictatorship would have the appearance of democracy, but would basically be a prison without walls in which the prisoners would not even dream of escaping. It would essentially be a system of slavery where, through consumption and entertainment, the slaves would love their servitude"
The Post Modern Globalist's Utopia, in other words. Fascism for the 21st century.
The trouble is, some of the slaves haven't even been afforded sufficient capacity to consume or be entertained by way of compensation and so are rebelling. Trump and Brexit being just two examples. Meanwhile, those slaves who have been adequately compensated just want it all left as it is. Quelle-surprise.
Indeed, there used to be a term for those kinds of slaves on the old cotton plantations who preferred their slavery and who adopted their master's ideology and sneered at all of the other slaves that they considered "beneath" them. They were called the "house niggers". Consequently, in any uprisings against the plantation owners, these house niggers were the first to get their throats cut since rest of the slaves unsurprisingly detested them even more than the plantation owner.
Sound familiar?
"The perfect dictatorship would have the appearance of democracy, but would basically be a prison without walls in which the prisoners would not even dream of escaping. It would essentially be a system of slavery where, through consumption and entertainment, the slaves would love their servitude"
The Post Modern Globalist's Utopia, in other words. Fascism for the 21st century.
The trouble is, some of the slaves haven't even been afforded sufficient capacity to consume or be entertained by way of compensation and so are rebelling. Trump and Brexit being just two examples. Meanwhile, those slaves who have been adequately compensated just want it all left as it is. Quelle-surprise.
Indeed, there used to be a term for those kinds of slaves on the old cotton plantations who preferred their slavery and who adopted their master's ideology and sneered at all of the other slaves that they considered "beneath" them. They were called the "house niggers". Consequently, in any uprisings against the plantation owners, these house niggers were the first to get their throats cut since rest of the slaves unsurprisingly detested them even more than the plantation owner.
Sound familiar?
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kenneal - lagger
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You should see all the shite that I get on Facebook for bringing arguments against Remainers, Oobers. I doubt that a Leaver bus would get any better in London or some other southern cities.oobers wrote:......
In the comments under that clip, you write "absolutely f***ing love this".
Why? There's nothing to love about intimidation and labelling people with a contrary opinion as 'nazi scum'. I'm someone who voted leave, favours a hard Brexit and doesn't agree with the idea of a second referendum. But the tactics used in this clip aren't the way to behave.
It is a shame that it has come to this but had the vote gone the other way I doubt that there would have been a murmur of complaint unlike the howling and gnashing of teeth that we have had over the last two and a bit years.
Action is the antidote to despair - Joan Baez