Brexit process

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Little John

Post by Little John »

Potemkin Villager wrote: .....Out of interest Undy I wonder what single factor is it that you feel defines the English? I ask this because knowing, having worked with, got drunk with, living amongst and generally got well on with a huge number of English folk (quite apart from having a large number of eccentric English in-laws) i have never been able to conjur up a single factor they all have in common.

I wonder how many Scots you actually know?
I know plenty and, in cultural terms, I have more in common with them than I do with most people south of the midlands

However, it is also true that there is a significant thread running through a part of Scottish culture that has an infantile hatred of all things English. And this extends to direct prejudice against individual English people simply on the basis of their country of birth.

I lived in Glasgow some years back. I am not making this up.
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Potemkin Villager
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Post by Potemkin Villager »

Little John wrote:
I know plenty and, in cultural terms, I have more in common with them than I do with most people south of the midlands

So how many folk south of the midlands do you actually know, what is this perception based on that allows you to make this statement?

However, it is also true that there is a significant thread running through a part of Scottish culture that has an infantile hatred of all things English. And this extends to direct prejudice against individual English people simply on the basis of their country of birth.

Asserting something is true does not make it so.

I lived in Glasgow some years back. I am not making this up.
I find it strange that feel the need to say you are not making something upI I lived in Newcastle upon Tyne some years back but do not feel any need to declare that I am not making this up because I know it to be true.

(Hope I edited this correctly - Ken)
Overconfidence, not just expert overconfidence but general overconfidence,
is one of the most common illusions we experience. Stan Robinson
Little John

Post by Little John »

Don't be so silly

You implied UE's view was prejudiced and based on a stereotype of people he had never met.

I informed you of my time based in Scotland (I also lived in Ayr) in order to circumvent that lazy cop-out being used on me.

So, in summary, your position is that if someone points out that there is a thread running through Scottish nationalism that is based on a rabid hatred of all things English, they are either basing it on prejudices in the absence of knowing any Scottish people or, if they do know Scottish people, they are basing it on anecdotes and so can be equally dismissed.

You're are joker
Last edited by Little John on 18 Dec 2018, 22:48, edited 1 time in total.
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Potemkin Villager
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Post by Potemkin Villager »

I am still awaiting a self definition of the English, since some English folk seem so keen on wielding simple stereotypes of others.
Overconfidence, not just expert overconfidence but general overconfidence,
is one of the most common illusions we experience. Stan Robinson
Little John

Post by Little John »

I'm still waiting for you to address the points made by both UE and me like an adult
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

Potemkin Villager wrote: Out of interest Undy I wonder what single factor is it that you feel defines the English?
There is none, just like there are none that defines the Scottish. I was talking about Scottish Nationalists, not scots.

It would be easier to define English nationalists, although it would be a largely negative definition, in the sense that their defining characteristic is a longing for a lost English national identity.
I wonder how many Scots you actually know?
Several, including one who is close family. Step sister-in-law, and I don't have large family.
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

RevdTess wrote:
UndercoverElephant wrote:
The SNP would demand a referendum.
No. They'll want people to think they demanded a referendum, but the SNP don't actually want a referendum with Corbyn in power, because they are guaranteed to lose it.
You mean a Brexit referendum or an indy2 referendum?
An indy2 referendum
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

Potemkin Villager wrote: Or maybe a rerun of the English civil war?
After Fulham win the Premier League. :-)
vtsnowedin
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Post by vtsnowedin »

Little John wrote:
However, it is also true that there is a significant thread running through a part of Scottish culture that has an infantile hatred of all things English. .
Considering the reality of English vs. Scottish history the word infantile hardly applies.
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

vtsnowedin wrote:
Little John wrote:
However, it is also true that there is a significant thread running through a part of Scottish culture that has an infantile hatred of all things English. .
Considering the reality of English vs. Scottish history the word infantile hardly applies.
I'd be absolutely fascinated to hear your take on Anglo-Scottish history. :-)
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Post by vtsnowedin »

UndercoverElephant wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:
Little John wrote:
However, it is also true that there is a significant thread running through a part of Scottish culture that has an infantile hatred of all things English. .
Considering the reality of English vs. Scottish history the word infantile hardly applies.
I'd be absolutely fascinated to hear your take on Anglo-Scottish history. :-)
Having both Scottish and English ancestors I think I have a fairly even or rational bias on the subject. But I doubt that we have space and time here to go back before William Wallace , or the disarming act, or Bonnie Prince Charlie. or enclosures, etc.
Last edited by vtsnowedin on 19 Dec 2018, 13:14, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by RevdTess »

Really interesting programme on radio 4 this morning at 11am called "Belonging - What is required to create a society based on a shared sense of belonging? Douglas Alexander explores the power of stories and asks why we have run out of tales that bind."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0001l7h

This is really important stuff I think. In all conversations about Brexit I'm always aware that unlike in decades past, we're no longer all agreeing about the national stories that define us, and we certainly don't have any consensus about who we want to be as a people in the future. I think our politicians haven't figured this out either and are just projecting the old stories (which are now divisive) with ever more strident voices.

If anyone else heard this radio programme I'd be interested in what they thought about it. I think it concludes that we really need politicians who can tell a story about a possible future that can bring the country together, and I remember Tony Blair being able to do this when he was first elected. I remember almost being moved to tears by one of his Labour conference speeches, although the reality never matched up. I personally get similar thrills when I hear Caroline Lucas or perhaps Mhairi Black give a speech, but the story they offer is certainly not resonating with the population at large.

Whether we end up with a no-deal hard Brexit or a soft Brexit or no Brexit, there is no way this is going to unite the nation, because either way it's locking us into a direction of travel that for some people is going to be fundamentally opposed to their deepest values. It's perhaps somewhat like a country in dictatorship - if you're with the 'in group' it's fantastic, but if you're not it's a powerless nightmare with very little hope for the future. I don't think it's hyperbole to say I feel like this about Brexit.

When I look for hope in the current situation, I have to admit that the big danger of a 2nd referendum 'remain' vote is that it just makes the populist voices stronger, and with that comes Trumpist tendencies that are anti-empathy, anti-compassion for the 'Other' - anyone not like us, and inevitably anti-women, anti-minorities of every kind. It might actually be better to burst the boil of Brexit, get it out of the national system, then perhaps we can start to look for a more positive, welcoming, environmentally-conscious and socially-inclusive national story to unite us in the future. If not, then I guess I could always move to Ireland? They've had some really positive referenda recently which have not so much transformed their nation as reflected a transformation that had already happened in hearts and minds.

Sorry for these rambling posts but I'm finding powerswitch a really helpful place to work through these issues for myself because there are people here with really strong and often well-argued views and I need to see how my feelings really bounce off the reality. As a church minister I spend a lot of time listening to people and Brexit is almost always the number 1 moan at the moment, unless it's the suffering caused by universal credit and the greater need for food banks and homeless shelters than ever before. In a way, Brexit hasn't caused division in the nation, it's just exposed the divisions that had invisibly grown up around us, and I see those divisions in the pews on whether and how much we should to charity for example, and who might be a worthy recipient. Never a day goes by without Brexit coming up in conversations on the street, and if there's one thing we can all unite on, it's that we're all sick of it dominating our national story. It's not what anyone wants to be known for.
Little John

Post by Little John »

It's the economy stupid

A diminishing number of people are getting richer while a growing majority are getting poorer. Meanwhile, all mainstream strands of both the left and right, in the political class, are doing everything in their power to hold BAU together and deny the kind of real change that is necessary. Thus, the mass of people are, in growing numbers, saying "F--k that" in response and they are saying it in a variety of ways. Everything else, including your "stories" fighting it out with one another, whilst observable cultural phenomena, are a consequence of those economic factors, not a cause.

It does not rain because the ground gets wet.
Last edited by Little John on 19 Dec 2018, 18:24, edited 4 times in total.
vtsnowedin
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Post by vtsnowedin »

Little John wrote:It's about economics stupid

A diminishing number of people are getting richer while a growing majority are getting poorer. .....
.........
.
The problem with your rant is that this premise is actually wrong. Along with average incomes rising (median 2017 = $61,372) the number of rich as defined as having a million plus dollars available for investment exclusive of home values is rising at a fast pace. There are now eleven million families that have reached this mark with 700,000 reaching the goal last year alone.
https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story ... /33205747/
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/12/median- ... 61372.html
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Post by Potemkin Villager »

Little John wrote:
However, it is also true that there is a significant thread running through a part of Scottish culture that has an infantile hatred of all things English. And this extends to direct prejudice against individual English people simply on the basis of their country of birth.

I lived in Glasgow some years back. I am not making this up.
Oh there is, is there? What do you base this observation on, especially as to the alleged infantile nature?

If you carry on in real life the way you do on here I would suggest any "prejudice" you experience is simply not on the basis of your country of birth, in fact it is not prejudice at all.
Overconfidence, not just expert overconfidence but general overconfidence,
is one of the most common illusions we experience. Stan Robinson
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