Brexit process

Potemkin Villager · Post by **Potemkin Villager** » 18 Dec 2018, 17:58

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46592394

"Brexit: Theresa May says David Cameron 'not advising her"

This is beyond ironic by a mile, sorry kilometere.

IMHO she would be very much better off having Bertie Ahern "not advising her"!

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 18 Dec 2018, 18:09

RevdTess wrote:
Little John wrote: And, if that happens, the SNP will likely shut up demanding for another independence referendum, at least for the foreseeable future, because they know they would lose it again under a Corbyn-led Labour government.
I'd expect the SNP to push for another indy ref in the case of no-deal, but only if their polls suggest no-deal has moved Scotland significantly towards wanting independence so they can rejoin the EU. Even then, the UK govt (Con or Lab) seems unlikely to want to re-open that can of worms straight after dealing with Brexit. IN means IN, after all. Personally I'm very much in favour of Scottish independence for many of the same reasons Leavers wanted Brexit. They're being ruled undemocratically by England in England's interests.

So, basically, you want the best for everyone but the English. How very 21st century, empire-guilt-ridden, hand-wringing, middle-class bourgeois of you.

RevdTess · Post by **RevdTess** » 18 Dec 2018, 18:17

Little John wrote:So, basically, you want the best for everyone but the English. How very 21st century, empire-guilt-ridden, hand-wringing, middle-class bourgeois of you.

I'm just not aware of any justification for Brexit that doesn't also justify Scottish independence.

My motivation actually is more that I strongly dislike the politics and system of the UK parliament. I have a huge preference for the SNP, and also for proportional representation. And I consider the EU democratic system more democratic than the UK parliament. So for me Brexit is fundamentally taking us in the wrong (ie anti-democratic) direction, whereas Scottish independence would be in a positive, democratic direction. Also my dad was born in Scotland so I'd totally move there.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 18 Dec 2018, 18:26

RevdTess wrote:
Little John wrote:So, basically, you want the best for everyone but the English. How very 21st century, empire-guilt-ridden, hand-wringing, middle-class bourgeois of you.
I'm just not aware of any justification for Brexit that doesn't also justify Scottish independence.

My motivation actually is more that I strongly dislike the politics and system of the UK parliament. I have a huge preference for the SNP, and also for proportional representation. And I consider the EU democratic system more democratic than the UK parliament. So for me Brexit is fundamentally taking us in the wrong (ie anti-democratic) direction, whereas Scottish independence would be in a positive, democratic direction. Also my dad was born in Scotland so I'd totally move there.

So, you have a preference for ardent nationalists, just so long as it is not English nationalism or a wider British nationalism. Okay.

Oh... and I have just read that you prefer EU "democracy". Okay, so now I am not going to take a singe utterance by you seriously.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 18 Dec 2018, 18:28

This is important. First tory remainer to come out and state they'll back a Labour VonC if no deal becomes tory policy:

https://twitter.com/NickBoles/status/10 ... wsrc%5Etfw

"If at any point between now and 29 March the government were to announce that â€˜no dealâ€™ Brexit had become its policy, I would immediately resign the Conservative whip and vote in any way necessary to stop it from happening."

Needs about ten more to follow him, and the government has no choice but to call a second referendum or face a general election.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 18 Dec 2018, 18:32

This is deep state shit that is going on here.

Potemkin Villager · Post by **Potemkin Villager** » 18 Dec 2018, 18:34

So here we have democracy in action, small numbers of individuals having an insanely disproportionate influence on outcomes.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 18 Dec 2018, 18:49

Little John wrote:This is deep state shit that is going on here.

I doubt it. I think it is just a tory remainer who thinks the government is heading for no deal, and is declaring he's less scared of Corbyn than he is of a no-deal brexit.

Others will surely follow.

Post by **adam2** » 18 Dec 2018, 18:59

And now 3,500 troops are to be put on standby in case of a no deal Brexit
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46600850

Are we expecting a war with France !
Or a coup at home ?

RevdTess · Post by **RevdTess** » 18 Dec 2018, 19:29

Little John wrote:So, you have a preference for ardent nationalists, just so long as it is not English nationalism or a wider British nationalism.

Yes, that's the point I'm trying to make! English nationalist culture really stinks. Scottish nationalism by contrast is an entirely different beast, and much more internationalist and open, kinder, more generous, more willing to share, to look after the marginalised.

You're assuming that anyone who's against Brexit just hates democracy or something. But for me at least, I have to be honest that what matters is whether the political system in question is more or less likely to produce the sort of society I want to live in. Like everyone else, I'm voting selfishly for the society I want.

So Brexit may bring sovereignty back to the UK parliament, but so far all the signs are that we would use that sovereignty to make the UK less like the sort of society I want to live in. As I've previously said, if I thought Brexit was going to improve our society I'd totally be in favour of it. I've no principled view on the European project in democratic terms, only on what sort of society it's aiming for, and whether it can be exited if that aim changes.

Likewise, I'm in favour of Scottish independence because it will free them from the UK parliament that is keeping them from freely following their own preferences for their society, a preference I approve.

What I'm trying to get through to you is that maybe we're talking at cross-purposes. Sure, I oppose Brexit, but not remotely for the reasons you seem to think. I mean, we're both anti-globalists, right? I'm probably even still in favour of autarky because of its emphasis on localisation of production and jobs. What I think we differ on is our preferred culture. But we can still argue about that in our democracy. At least for now.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 18 Dec 2018, 19:32

Scottish nationalism by contrast is an entirely different beast, and much more internationalist and open, kinder, more generous,

Apart from the rabid, delerious hatred of everything English, which defines them.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 18 Dec 2018, 19:53

And defines Tess as well by the looks of it

Potemkin Villager · Post by **Potemkin Villager** » 18 Dec 2018, 19:56

adam2 wrote:And now 3,500 troops are to be put on standby in case of a no deal Brexit
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46600850

Are we expecting a war with France !
Or a coup at home ?

Or maybe a rerun of the English civil war? I think I am correct in describing it as the English civil war and not the British civil war.

Potemkin Villager · Post by **Potemkin Villager** » 18 Dec 2018, 20:14

UndercoverElephant wrote:
Scottish nationalism by contrast is an entirely different beast, and much more internationalist and open, kinder, more generous,
Apart from the rabid, delerious hatred of everything English, which defines them.

Out of interest Undy I wonder what single factor is it that you feel defines the English? I ask this because knowing, having worked with, got drunk with, living amongst and generally got well on with a huge number of English folk (quite apart from having a large number of eccentric English in-laws) i have never been able to conjur up a single factor they all have in common.

I wonder how many Scots you actually know?

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 18 Dec 2018, 20:49

Another gamechanger if true:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46608952

Theresa May is now thought to be in favour of giving MPs a vote on alternatives to her plans when they debate her Brexit deal.

The prime minister was previously thought to be against this idea.

But sources have told the BBC she wants the "meaningful vote" planned for the third week of January to be a "moment of reckoning" for Brexit.

It comes as the cabinet announced it was stepping up preparations in case there is a no-deal Brexit on 29 March.

The votes would be on amendments to the motion on her Brexit deal - and would take place before the key vote on her plan.

You need to read the whole article. It looks like the cabinet are hopelessly split about which alternatives to rule out in the event May's deal is declared dead.

But if I understand this correctly then any MP could table any amendment, and it would be up to Bercow to decide which of them get debated and voted on. This is the last roll of the dice for May - she is hoping that all the other options get less support than her deal. But it is a massive gamble.

If this happens, then we will find out January 14th where this is going. Either her deal will pass in the commons, or some other course of action will be approved by parliament.

I can see revoking article 50 winning.