Brexit process

Post by **clv101** » 28 Nov 2018, 17:44

vtsnowedin wrote:Don't be so pessimistic. Democracy is slow and cumbersome and plagued by corruption but it does move the way the majority wants once the clear majority has made up it's mind about what it wants.

...and it may be the case that by March next year a clear majority decides it wants to remain. Be pretty daft to leave against that majority opinion, as LJ would agree, hence a good idea to ask if the last 2.5 years has changed opinion before we actually jump.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 28 Nov 2018, 17:51

I see you for what you are Chris Vernon. You are a very polite, middle class, British form of fascist.

There will be a reckoning for what is about to happen. At the ballot box, if we are lucky.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 28 Nov 2018, 19:18

Lord Beria3 wrote: We remain convinced that a deal based on the current withdrawal agreement - but not necessarily the political declaration - is the most likely of all options.

I still have it as the only outcome that is definitely not going to occur.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 28 Nov 2018, 19:19

Little John wrote:So, John McDonnell has apparently just said that Labour could back a second referendum. But, only if "no deal" was not on the ballot.

Traitor.

Okay, so now we get to see what it will take before the political class do as they are f***ing told.

Corbyn will make sure no deal is on the ballot paper. McDonnell is only saying that to try to encourage remainer tory MPs to vote against May's deal.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 28 Nov 2018, 19:20

I doubt it.

But, assuming you are right, he is playing a fantastically dangerous political game.

woodburner · Post by **woodburner** » 28 Nov 2018, 19:21

Nah, there will be a torrent of deceipt from both sides, just like the last time and people will do a knee jerk reaction and the split will be about 50/50 just like the last time.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 28 Nov 2018, 19:22

woodburner wrote:Nah, there will be a torrent of deceipt from both sides, just like the last time and people will do a knee jerk reaction and the split will be about 50/50 just like the last time.

Yes, that's called democracy. It's pretty messy. But there is nothing better and, by the way, it was 52/48 and that was in the teeth of a political class and virtually the entire mainstream media pushing an anti-brexit propagandist narrative.

Post by **clv101** » 28 Nov 2018, 20:08

Little John wrote:I see you for what you are Chris Vernon. You are a very polite, middle class, British form of fascist.

Okay Steve, let's be serious for a moment. Firstly, on 'democracy', you often talk about the democratic decision, the democratic process with reference to the Brexit vote, even claiming yourself to be a democrat whilst suggesting others aren't. I'd have more respect for your position if you showed some understanding of our country being a representative democracy and not some kind of absolute plebiscite and an understanding of democracy being a process not an event. It is highly democratic for both the public and our representative politicians to continue to debate Brexit after the referendum. On the Brexit referendum itself I'd like to see a democrat such as yourself recognise a few facts; electoral laws were broken, the referendum itself was advisory (the advisory nature meaning a court can't order a re-run!), the franchise excluded groups with direct interest in the result and there was no threshold majority set. Due to the delay between, firstly the vote and the withdrawal agreement and secondly actually leaving itself - it's perfectly possible for the mood of the electorate to change. I'm not saying it has, just that it might have. Where's your recognition of this fact?

Secondly, on the fascist accusation. It's just silly. Fascists, above all else are nationalists. I'm not a nationalist, in fact I think you're more of a nationalist than I am! Other characteristics: positive view of violence, not me, in fact there's a lot more talk of violence from you than me. Associated with populism and mass-mobilisation, not me, in fact you sometimes fall back on the 'will of the people' language. Historically fascists fall at the far-right end of the L-R spectrum, again not me. Finally, it was Orwell who said "the word 'Fascism' is almost entirely meaningless ... almost any English person would accept 'bully' as a synonym for 'Fascist'", just looking at our Powerswitch entries, who's the bigger bully?

Steve, objectively, I'm not a fascist.

It simply is not true to suggest anyone not 100% behind leaving the EU, irrelevant of how the situation evolves, is not a democrat or that they are a fascist.

Lord Beria3 · Post by **Lord Beria3** » 28 Nov 2018, 20:46

UndercoverElephant wrote:
Little John wrote:So, John McDonnell has apparently just said that Labour could back a second referendum. But, only if "no deal" was not on the ballot.

Traitor.

Okay, so now we get to see what it will take before the political class do as they are f***ing told.
Corbyn will make sure no deal is on the ballot paper. McDonnell is only saying that to try to encourage remainer tory MPs to vote against May's deal.

McDonnell is on record with saying that no deal cannot be on the 2nd referendum as it would be too risky to let the British vote for a no-deal outcome which doesn't enjoy majority support among the MP's.

Corbyn seems loathed to go down this route of a 2nd referendum as he knows it will unleash a Pandoras box.

1) will no-deal be on the option?
2) will Labour campaign on a deal (adjusted by Labour after they win power) or Remain?

A hornets nest. Corbyn would be wise to resist McDonnells ideas...

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 28 Nov 2018, 20:58

clv101 wrote:
Little John wrote:I see you for what you are Chris Vernon. You are a very polite, middle class, British form of fascist.
Okay Steve, let's be serious for a moment. Firstly, on 'democracy', you often talk about the democratic decision, the democratic process with reference to the Brexit vote, even claiming yourself to be a democrat whilst suggesting others aren't. I'd have more respect for your position if you showed some understanding of our country being a representative democracy and not some kind of absolute plebiscite and an understanding of democracy being a process not an event. It is highly democratic for both the public and our representative politicians to continue to debate Brexit after the referendum. On the Brexit referendum itself I'd like to see a democrat such as yourself recognise a few facts; electoral laws were broken, the referendum itself was advisory (the advisory nature meaning a court can't order a re-run!), the franchise excluded groups with direct interest in the result and there was no threshold majority set. Due to the delay between, firstly the vote and the withdrawal agreement and secondly actually leaving itself - it's perfectly possible for the mood of the electorate to change. I'm not saying it has, just that it might have. Where's your recognition of this fact?

Secondly, on the fascist accusation. It's just silly. Fascists, above all else are nationalists. I'm not a nationalist, in fact I think you're more of a nationalist than I am! Other characteristics: positive view of violence, not me, in fact there's a lot more talk of violence from you than me. Associated with populism and mass-mobilisation, not me, in fact you sometimes fall back on the 'will of the people' language. Historically fascists fall at the far-right end of the L-R spectrum, again not me. Finally, it was Orwell who said "the word 'Fascism' is almost entirely meaningless ... almost any English person would accept 'bully' as a synonym for 'Fascist'", just looking at our Powerswitch entries, who's the bigger bully?

Steve, objectively, I'm not a fascist.

It simply is not true to suggest anyone not 100% behind leaving the EU, irrelevant of how the situation evolves, is not a democrat or that they are a fascist.

More lies and dissembling. In terms of slippery evasiveness, the apple does not fall far from the tree does it.

1) Fascism may be defined in opposition to democracy as any group of people who undemocratically assume control of a society, or support those who do, of a much larger number of people on the basis of an underlying assumption of superiority, be it of economic power, assumed intellectual power or any other metric. By that definition, you are a fascist. As I said, you are a very polite, middle-class, British form of it. But, what you are supporting makes you one nonetheless.

2) Nationalism is a red herring some nationalists are fascists some are not. By your moronic definition, the SNP and the Palestinians are fascists.

3) I didn't say you are a fascist because you do not support leaving the EU 100% or any other percentage. I am calling you a fascist because you are supporting of an attempt to usurp the democratic process.

If you were thick, I would just regard you as one more useful idiot. But, you are not, are you Chris Vernon.

Just admit and accept what you really are.

Post by **clv101** » 28 Nov 2018, 21:04

Little John wrote:2) Nationalism is a red herring some nationalists are fascists some are not. By your moronic definition, the SNP and the Palestinians are fascists.

Fascists are nationalists - I absolutely did not say all nationalists are fascists!

Any comment on my first paragraph?

Little John wrote:I am calling you a fascist because you are supporting of an attempt to usurp the democratic process.

What do you think I'm supporting? Seriously - what is the attempt I'm supporting?

woodburner · Post by **woodburner** » 28 Nov 2018, 22:08

52/48 is about 50/50 and all the players are attempting to usurp the democratic system. Democracy is not one of their interests. Power is.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 28 Nov 2018, 22:32

Lord Beria3 wrote: 2) will Labour campaign on a deal (adjusted by Labour after they win power) or Remain?

Labour will campaign (for the election, if it happens) on a referendum. The problem with campaigning for a deal is that the EU will be saying that negotiations cannot be re-opened, which means Labour would end up looking like the SNP during the independence referendum if they campaign on seeking a new deal.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 28 Nov 2018, 23:05

UndercoverElephant wrote:
Lord Beria3 wrote: 2) will Labour campaign on a deal (adjusted by Labour after they win power) or Remain?
Labour will campaign (for the election, if it happens) on a referendum. The problem with campaigning for a deal is that the EU will be saying that negotiations cannot be re-opened, which means Labour would end up looking like the SNP during the independence referendum if they campaign on seeking a new deal.

They should and could campaign on a ticket of promising to try and renegotiate and, in the event of that failing, leave on WTO. This would have likely carried both Tory and Labour leave voters.

That they are not going to will not be lost on Labour voters in the 70% of Labour constituencies who voted Leave in the referendum, I can assure you

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 28 Nov 2018, 23:25

Breaking news...Labour amendment clears this up:

https://twitter.com/labourwhips/status/ ... 6997786630

UKLabour has tabled our Amdt to 1. Reject Theresa Mayâ€™s Brexit deal because it fails to protect jobs and living standards, workersâ€™ rights and environmental standards 2. Oppose No deal, and 3. Keep all options on the table to protect the UK from a no deal scenario

Labour are trying to get a second referendum, without no deal on ballot paper, and it is intended to make worse the split in the tory party. Likely to work, too.