Brexit process

[UndercoverElephant]

Odds on a no-deal have just skyrocketed. Long piece, but worth watching. Theresa May cannot bridge the gap between the EU and her own party.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdaYABy ... e=youtu.be

[Little John]

She cannot bridge the gap between the EU and her own country.

[fuzzy]

One subject on which there has been a profound silence in the Brexit debate is the subject of Value Added Tax aka VAT. This Eurotax has been part of the scenery of life for so long that is now scarcely noticed.

According to wikipedia "The co-ordinated administration of value added tax within the EU VAT area is an important part of the single market. Cross-border VAT is declared in the same way as domestic VAT, which facilitates the elimination of border controls between member states, saving costs and reducing delays. It also simplifies administrative work for freight forwarders. Previously, in spite of the customs union, the differing VAT rates and the separate VAT administration processes resulted in a high administrative and cost burden for cross-border trade."

Abolishing VAT and opting opt of the co-ordinated EU administration of course would be hugely popular but like all political strokes it would have consequences.

VAT is a main driver in turning businesses multinational ie globalism. It is exploited by multinationals who can bank sales in low tax areas and purchases in high tax countries. It is part of the total debate which our leaders will never have over tax and welfare payments. If you have an elaborate welfare system 'safety net', there is no need for an elaborate tax system, it's just like that to hide fudge. There are only 3 ways to raise taxes, what you own, what you buy, or what you earn. Tax raising only needs to be effective, fairness can be sorted by welfare. So if you abolish a massive sales tax, where does the missing billions come from? Less war, MPs, Whitehall, Lords, Royals, Quangos, 3rd sector, civil service etc would be a good start.

[adam2]

One subject on which there has been a profound silence in the Brexit debate is the subject of Value Added Tax aka VAT. This Eurotax has been part of the scenery of life for so long that is now scarcely noticed.

According to wikipedia "The co-ordinated administration of value added tax within the EU VAT area is an important part of the single market. Cross-border VAT is declared in the same way as domestic VAT, which facilitates the elimination of border controls between member states, saving costs and reducing delays. It also simplifies administrative work for freight forwarders. Previously, in spite of the customs union, the differing VAT rates and the separate VAT administration processes resulted in a high administrative and cost burden for cross-border trade."

Abolishing VAT and opting opt of the co-ordinated EU administration of course would be hugely popular but like all political strokes it would have consequences.

I cant see VAT being abolished on leaving the EU, it forms a major part of government income and would have to be replaced with other very substantial taxes if abolished.
Whilst VAT is indeed a "eurotax" we should remember that before joining the common market, that we had purchase tax which was somewhat similar in purpose but more complex.

What we could do after brexit would be to alter the range of goods that are subject to VAT and the rates payable.
I would like to see a second higher rate of VAT imposed on goods that are needlessly damaging to the environment.
Examples could include
Electric lamps of less than 150 lumens per watt efficiency.
Disposable batteries.
Disposable tableware.
Beer and soft drinks in disposable containers.
TV sets and computers that use more than 60 watts.
Anything that uses more than 0.5 watt on standby.

I would remove VAT from renewable energy equipment and from insulation materials.

[Potemkin Villager]

have consequences.

So if you abolish a massive sales tax, where does the missing billions come from? Less war, MPs, Whitehall, Lords, Royals, Quangos, 3rd sector, civil service etc would be a good start.[/quote]

I would go along with all the above, certainly no Trident! I seem to remember that before EU membership and VAT there was some system of purchase tax which VAT replaced. Leaving Europe would sensibly mean leaving EU tax schemes like VAT as well but I suspect it doesn't as it's replacement with a new domestic scheme is seen as politically even more tricky than retaining VAT.

[UndercoverElephant]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45603192

UK Prime Minister Theresa May has said the EU must treat the UK with "respect" in Brexit negotiations.

In a statement at Downing Street she said for EU leaders to reject her plan with no alternative at this "late stage of negotiations" was "not acceptable".

Oh dear, Theresa. Looks like you monumentally miscalculated, just like you did during that election campaign. She has not been planning for a no deal brexit, and now it looks like she can't avoid one. Oops.

[kenneal - lagger]

I would agree with Adam's suggestions on what to tax although I disagree with his point that VAT is simpler. Purchase tax was only imposed on the goods at retail sale whereas VAT is imposed all the way down the manufacturing and sales chain.

The material supplier charges VAT on his sales and then reclaims all his costs for supplying the raw materials. The manufacturer charges VAT on his manufactured item and then reclaims the VAT on his costs. The retailer then charges VAT on his sales but reclaims the VAT on his costs and there are often a dozen other stages in the chain all paying and reclaiming VAT. The only substantial amount of tax collected is at the point of sale so why not save a load of hassle and additional work and just charge the tax at the point of retail sale as a Purchase Tax?

It would save a fortune, put a lot of book keepers out of business but it would provide a huge new workforce to replace some of the migrants that we now have to import to do jobs for which we don't have enough people.

Another good reason for leaving the EU!!

[emordnilap]

The VAT system is designed to ensure tax gets money on the value of the product at each stage in the supply chain, regardless of the final purchaser. You and I might not like it but it's logical.

If you have purchase tax, you have to invent a system that taxes the material where it 'stops' in the chain of production; that could be far more complex than VAT.

[Lord Beria3]

No deal - BRING IT ON!!!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/marke ... -deal.html

[UndercoverElephant]

This is the moment of truth. It does indeed look like we are heading straight for a no deal, and if any party is capable of changing the logic of what is happening, they have to do it now. If they can't force May into another referendum now then they won't at all, and if they can't bring her down or bring the government down then they won't at all. The EU are not going to back down, and Theresa May cannot move at all because she is being pulled in three different directions at the same time.

The only way this is going to change is if the Ireland shifts its position in a desperate attempt to minimise the hardness of the border they are going to end up with.

[fuzzy]

Purchase tax was based on arbritarily deciding what was 'industrial' and what was 'domestic' ie retail goods. This created hilarious loopholes and drove industry in strange directions.

The 1st hi tech bass driver outside of USA back in the 60s was the B139. The project was designed by ringing the wonks in customs and asking what the smallest size an 'industrial' speaker, ie no tax, would be.The clueless official said 13 x 9 inches. When they were made most of the 1st versions had a wide pointless frame just to achieve no tax status.

[Potemkin Villager]

VAT is a main driver in turning businesses multinational ie globalism. It is exploited by multinationals who can bank sales in low tax areas and purchases in high tax countries. It is part of the total debate which our leaders will never have over tax and welfare payments.

Not VAT but along the same lines.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/eu-commision- ... 07814.html

"Britain will receive a new formal warning, the second step in EU sanctions procedure, for not having recovered 2.7 billion euros in revenues lost in a scam involving Chinese imports into Europe. The EU warned London about this for the first time in March.
..........

The imports were declared at an artificially low value to reduce the level of customs duties raised, according to the Commission, with a resultant impact on the EU's budget.

Britain has said it does not accept liability for the alleged losses or recognise the estimate of alleged duty evaded."

[Lord Beria3]

Among my Remain voting friends, there has been a palpable shift to support for no-deal Brexit thanks to the EU.

This seems to be a nation-wide trend as per a number of tweets by MP's and political commentators.

Penny Mordaunt MP

✔@PennyMordaunt

Speaking to constituents today, it is clear that EUs behaviour in recent days is increasing support for us leaving the EU. Ppl still want a deal but content to go without one, even folk who voted remain. Important statement from PM re rights for EU migrants in a no deal scenario.

[kenneal - lagger]

Seems like the EU are trying to scam us for more money. If they only notified us in March how could we have built up a £2.4 billion bill for taxation since then? How can they make us liable for what happened before that date?

[kenneal - lagger]

This post tells us that migrant workers are better for the economy because we don't have to pay for their education and they usually leave before they come up for retirement pay. That's not the case for the Windrush generation nor for many others I suspect. Many will stay on intol pension age and some will then take their pensions abroad.

Neither does it seen to take into account the money which these migrants remit abroad to take care of families, either close or extended, who they still take care of.