Brexit process

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 28 Feb 2018, 22:58

Corbyn, in capitulating to the neo-liberal, globalist tendencies that have so over-run the Labour party over the last 35 years in order to secure a triangulated victory instead of one based on principle, is making *exactly* the same mistake as the democrats did in 2016.

And the political outcome for Labour will be the same.

Now, I do understand that some on here will be virtually wetting themselves with joy at Labour's treachery of the working class of this country and an interview with a has-been politician who told us the sky would fall in if we left the ERM. Because this holds out the possibility that they get to impose their wish to Remain in all-but-name on a population who, in the largest voter turnout in UK history, voted to Leave the EU - which, of logical necessity, means ceasing to be part of *any* single market or customs union (a population,. who, if their votes are counted along consistency lines, did not merely win the referendum, they won it by a landslide. To be precise, 70% of all Labour constituencies voted to leave and 75% of all conservative constituencies voted to leave). In other words, such people are anti democrats
.
But, even worse than such treachery is the fact that it will fail and an English Trump is what we are heading for. Possibly at the next election. Possibly the one after that. And, of course, he/she will also fail the working class, as will Trump. And what then replaces them will make someone like Trump look tame by comparison.

The echoes of the dying days of the Weimar republic are reverberating throughout current Western politics. And what comes next will be the fault of a political class on the wrong side of history aided and abetted by faux-left liberal lickpsittles.

Post by **clv101** » 28 Feb 2018, 23:12

I often struggle to comprehend your posts Steve. You seem to have me down as some arch-remainer - I'm not, as I'm sure I've made clear several times above.

What I do think is that May's government is properly ballsing up the negotiation, public communication from government has been detached from reality and I'm not convinced anything more realistic is happening behind the scenes.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 01 Mar 2018, 08:37

clv101 wrote:I often struggle to comprehend your posts Steve. You seem to have me down as some arch-remainer - I'm not, as I'm sure I've made clear several times above.

What I do think is that May's government is properly ballsing up the negotiation, public communication from government has been detached from reality and I'm not convinced anything more realistic is happening behind the scenes.

Indeed. If I was facing a logical problem with potentially severe outcomes when it is exposed as such, I would have thrown in the towel. If I was her I'd have resigned after screwing up the election. But she's keeping on going, and it raises the question "Does she have a plan?" Has she got a cunning scheme up her sleeve that will get her out of her Irish Border Problem? And I get the distinct impression that the answer is "No", and that in fact she's not even thinking about the logical problem, rather just trying to find a way to survive until tomorrow. It's like trying to play chess without thinking more than one move ahead, or taking any notice of any of the pieces apart from the one that is immediately threatened. Not likely to end well. Even more bizarre is that if this is true then her cabinet colleagues must know it is true, and yet they do not remove her, presumably because they can't agree on who she should be replaced with, because she's made sure that cabinet is 50/50 remainers and brexiteers.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 01 Mar 2018, 09:35

The "solution" to the Irish border vis a vis the EU is for the Irish and the EU to decide upon. Ireland is not part of the UK. It is part of the EU.

Northern Ireland, however, is part of the UK and, as long as it remains so, it should be subject to precisely the same terms and conditions pertaining to leaving the EU as to the rest of the UK.

That it. That's all. Period.

fuzzy · Post by **fuzzy** » 01 Mar 2018, 10:30

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/theresa-may-c ... 38080.html

Gosh - who could see that coming..

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 01 Mar 2018, 12:09

Little John wrote:The "solution" to the Irish border vis a vis the EU is for the Irish and the EU to decide upon. Ireland is not part of the UK. It is part of the EU.

Northern Ireland, however, is part of the UK and, as long as it remains so, it should be subject to precisely the same terms and conditions pertaining to leaving the EU as to the rest of the UK.

That it. That's all. Period.

But the problem is that there are three parties who are all saying "That's it. Period.", and what they are saying logically conflicts. You have to beyond saying "That's it." and say "...and this may well mean that there is going to have to be a hard border in Ireland, and you are just going to have to get used to that idea. You don't have to start killing each other because there is a border."

The underlying problem is that the fate of Northern Ireland, long term, is not clear. NI could remain part of the UK for the next 200 years and beyond, or it could become part of a united Ireland in the medium-term future. And whether or not a border re-appears post-Brexit, and what sort of border it is, is not irrelevant to this.

Put another way: some people do not accept that NI is fully a part of the UK. They do not, personally, recognise this. For them, it is only a matter of time before NI becomes part of Ireland, a destiny that is not in doubt, and hopefully not that long away. A hard border shatters that dream.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 01 Mar 2018, 12:26

UndercoverElephant wrote:
Little John wrote:The "solution" to the Irish border vis a vis the EU is for the Irish and the EU to decide upon. Ireland is not part of the UK. It is part of the EU.

Northern Ireland, however, is part of the UK and, as long as it remains so, it should be subject to precisely the same terms and conditions pertaining to leaving the EU as to the rest of the UK.

That it. That's all. Period.
But the problem is that there are three parties who are all saying "That's it. Period.", and what they are saying logically conflicts. You have to beyond saying "That's it." and say "...and this may well mean that there is going to have to be a hard border in Ireland, and you are just going to have to get used to that idea. You don't have to start killing each other because there is a border."

The underlying problem is that the fate of Northern Ireland, long term, is not clear. NI could remain part of the UK for the next 200 years and beyond, or it could become part of a united Ireland in the medium-term future. And whether or not a border re-appears post-Brexit, and what sort of border it is, is not irrelevant to this.

If a border re-appearing is not relevant to the long term future of the island of Ireland, then why is it being cited as important in the Brexit negotiations?

Put another way: some people do not accept that NI is fully a part of the UK. They do not, personally, recognise this. For them, it is only a matter of time before NI becomes part of Ireland, a destiny that is not in doubt, and hopefully not that long away. A hard border shatters that dream.

So, are you now saying it is relevant? Which is it?

Brexit, as it applies to Northern Ireland, means that someone is going to get pissed off. It is either going to be the loyalists or it is going to be the republicans. And it is also, potentially, going to be a very large swathe of the rest of the UK's population. We don't get to avoid the poison. We just get to choose which one.

I am a citizen of the UK.

I have chosen mine.

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 01 Mar 2018, 12:49

The point about the Good Friday Agreement is that it is an agreement. What this could lead to is a majority of people in NI wanting to leave the UK and be part of RoI within the EU instead.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 01 Mar 2018, 12:50

If that happens, so be it.

Also, the Good Friday agreement was as good as dead before Brexit.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 01 Mar 2018, 14:12

Little John wrote:
UndercoverElephant wrote:
Little John wrote:The "solution" to the Irish border vis a vis the EU is for the Irish and the EU to decide upon. Ireland is not part of the UK. It is part of the EU.

Northern Ireland, however, is part of the UK and, as long as it remains so, it should be subject to precisely the same terms and conditions pertaining to leaving the EU as to the rest of the UK.

That it. That's all. Period.
But the problem is that there are three parties who are all saying "That's it. Period.", and what they are saying logically conflicts. You have to beyond saying "That's it." and say "...and this may well mean that there is going to have to be a hard border in Ireland, and you are just going to have to get used to that idea. You don't have to start killing each other because there is a border."

The underlying problem is that the fate of Northern Ireland, long term, is not clear. NI could remain part of the UK for the next 200 years and beyond, or it could become part of a united Ireland in the medium-term future. And whether or not a border re-appears post-Brexit, and what sort of border it is, is not irrelevant to this.
If a border re-appearing is not relevant to the long term future of the island of Ireland, then why is it being cited as important in the Brexit negotiations?

I said "not irrelevant" (i have not edited it).

Brexit, as it applies to Northern Ireland, means that someone is going to get pissed off. It is either going to be the loyalists or it is going to be the republicans. And it is also, potentially, going to be a very large swathe of the rest of the UK's population. We don't get to avoid the poison. We just get to choose which one.

I am a citizen of the UK.

I have chosen mine.

Yes, the people of the island of Ireland, especially republicans, are going to be pissed off. All I am saying is that we need to stop pretending otherwise. It is no use saying "Well, we don't want a hard border." It's disingenuous. The simple fact is that if the UK leaves the customs union and single market, AND remains in one piece, then there WILL be new border infrastructure in Ireland. Whether or not anybody "wants it" is beside the point. It has to happen, because the alternatives are even less acceptable. To move the current process forwards, that discussion has to occur, instead of everybody dancing around it saying other things. We have to say to the EU "There needs to be a border", and if the EU says "Then there isn't going to be a deal" then everybody will know that there isn't going to be deal. Instead we have this interminable uncertainty where nobody is willing to say it like it is.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 01 Mar 2018, 14:14

johnhemming2 wrote:The point about the Good Friday Agreement is that it is an agreement. What this could lead to is a majority of people in NI wanting to leave the UK and be part of RoI within the EU instead.

As Steve says...then so be it. If that's the way out of the logical problem then so be it. Except that this leads to another problem, which is that the DUP will bring down the current administration and force a general election rather than see any moves in that direction.

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 01 Mar 2018, 15:12

The Northern Irish have to decide whether or not they want to be part of the UK or not and accept all that entails. The Southern Irish, and that includes the Catholic North, have to decide whether they want a bunch of disgruntled people in their midst throwing bombs about in a "united" Ireland.

I doubt that a nation which is split into at least two completely separate communities along party lines, as is Southern Ireland, can come to an agreement with another country over the unification of the two or even agree to live peaceably next to each other.

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 01 Mar 2018, 15:22

fuzzy wrote:https://uk.news.yahoo.com/theresa-may-c ... 38080.html

Gosh - who could see that coming..

That's just pandering to the business lobby who don't want to train too many people when they can get them from abroad more or less ready trained. Saves them a fortune but leaves British workers up shit street still.

When we leave with no agreement we could probably leave the Irish border open and leave it too the EU to tell the Irish to impose the border controls. The Irish would then have to decide what they wanted.

Carrying on the sham that the Irish are part of Britain after Brexit and giving them free movement is going to far as far as I'm concerned. They have to decide whether they're better off being part of Britain or part of the EU.

Potemkin Villager · Post by **Potemkin Villager** » 01 Mar 2018, 15:22

UndercoverElephant wrote:
johnhemming2 wrote:The point about the Good Friday Agreement is that it is an agreement. What this could lead to is a majority of people in NI wanting to leave the UK and be part of RoI within the EU instead.
As Steve says...then so be it. If that's the way out of the logical problem then so be it. Accept that this leads to another problem, which is that the DUP will bring down the current administration and force a general election rather than see any moves in that direction.

As usual it is a totally self inflicted snafu. The Good Friday agreement is an intergovernmental one between Irish and British governments. The British government choosing to play fast and loose with it will scarcely convince other governments, that they want to do deals with, that their word is their bond.

Potemkin Villager · Post by **Potemkin Villager** » 01 Mar 2018, 15:35

kenneal - lagger wrote:
I doubt that a nation which is split into at least two completely separate communities along party lines, as is Southern Ireland, can come to an agreement with another country over the unification of the two or even agree to live peaceably next to each other.

I doubt that a nation and political parties which is split into at least two completely separate communities along party lines, such as the UK , can come to an agreement with another country over the unification of the two or even agree to live peaceably next to each other.

I am also afraid I am not aware of a nation called Southern Ireland.