Trust you to spot that VortexVortex wrote:Welcome back ... and thanks for including me on your list!
omega3
Moderator: Peak Moderation
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Mean Mr Mustard
- Posts: 1555
- Joined: 31 Dec 2006, 12:14
- Location: Cambridgeshire
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tattercoats
- Posts: 433
- Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
- Location: Wiltshire
- Contact:
's'funny how the tenor of this forum has changed over the past year - it's been one of my daily sites for around eighteen months now, but time was there was a great deal moer about preparation, self-sufficiency, off-grid topics - lots of 'I've just got chickens' or 'how do you make bread?' or 'where does yeast come from?' or 'I'm learning to knit my own PV panels' - you get the idea - and lots of mutual support and encouragement along those lines.
I suppose as a group we've all gone further along those preparations and have less to tell each other, besides the current geopolitical situ and oil price situ are relatively stable - so the debates have become rather more esoteric, and the differences between us have risen to the surface. I'm against racism, but I think there's a point for discussing what iles behind such views, because when things get hard folk will get scared, and when folk get scared they'll be looking for scapegoats, and it's as well for the thinking people to be aware that this is how things may go.
Personally I enjoy this forum most when there's pleyful debate on how Things Might Develop, and the sorts of societies that may result, with an emphasis on how we'll all grow our own and turn feudal. But that's me, and I dare say you wouldn't all want to end up in my village anyway.
Eggman, hang in there; you were very supportive and informative to me back when I was a newbie. Everyone - have a cuppa and relax a little, hey?
I suppose as a group we've all gone further along those preparations and have less to tell each other, besides the current geopolitical situ and oil price situ are relatively stable - so the debates have become rather more esoteric, and the differences between us have risen to the surface. I'm against racism, but I think there's a point for discussing what iles behind such views, because when things get hard folk will get scared, and when folk get scared they'll be looking for scapegoats, and it's as well for the thinking people to be aware that this is how things may go.
Personally I enjoy this forum most when there's pleyful debate on how Things Might Develop, and the sorts of societies that may result, with an emphasis on how we'll all grow our own and turn feudal. But that's me, and I dare say you wouldn't all want to end up in my village anyway.
Eggman, hang in there; you were very supportive and informative to me back when I was a newbie. Everyone - have a cuppa and relax a little, hey?
Green, political and narrative songs - contemporary folk from an award-winning songwriter and performer. Now booking 2011. Talis Kimberley ~ www.talis.net ~ also Bandcamp, FB etc...
Enjoying a lovely cup of Earl Grey tattercoats.
I think a lot of us can get frustrated/annoyed/upset sometimes because we care so much about what is going on. If we didn't care we wouldn't react so much.
Maybe a separate thread should be started about immigration as I do see this as an issue we are going to increasingly be forced to deal with. Not just in the UK, but in the US, Canada, Australia and many other countries. Vast amounts of people are going to potentially want to move country when PO really starts to hit.
I think a lot of us can get frustrated/annoyed/upset sometimes because we care so much about what is going on. If we didn't care we wouldn't react so much.
Maybe a separate thread should be started about immigration as I do see this as an issue we are going to increasingly be forced to deal with. Not just in the UK, but in the US, Canada, Australia and many other countries. Vast amounts of people are going to potentially want to move country when PO really starts to hit.
Real money is gold and silver
Eggman, I've enjoyed your posts from Canada. It would be shame not to hear more about your experiences there. I hope you don't leave.
I understand Aurora's feelings. I was toying with the same idea myself for about 24 hours. My feelings were partly that I felt pretty offended and partly I felt that the whole point of PowerSwitch was being so badly undermined by the bigotry. Like many others, I find it great to have a place to discuss peak and related issues with a varied group of people who are all peak oil aware.
I also agree Pippa that it's hard to communicate fully when you only have the written word. Although, it's a good test of our powers of written expression and our reading skills to keep up with all the conversations.
The whole episode has made me think about my post peak future. My father was an immigrant to this country. He was born into an islamic family in South Africa and came here to study medicine (paid by his family, not the UK taxpayer). He met my mother in Ireland and they settled near London where my dad worked at a GP for many years. He was an ardent communist as a young man and was a life-long atheist and he had quite a rationalist view of the world. I'm a bit more agnostic but still essentially a non-believer. At school I learnt about christianity, at college various evangelical types tried to convert me. When I was 21, I visited apartheid South Africa and met hundreds of people all related to me. I visited again two years ago. Now I work in the most ethnically mixed city in the world (bar New York?) and work and socialise with people of all faiths and no faith, including muslims.
The point of this potted family history is to say that I feel I am in a pretty good position to say that muslim people share the same hopes, dreams and values as non-muslims. Many of the values that they would describe as islamic are also christian and jewish. Amongst my cousins, there's the whole range from the intolerant, ignorant & foolish to the thoughtful, thinking and very special. Most are just ordinary people living rather prosaic lives. Their social attitudes are mostly more conservative than mine, more like those of the 1950s, but that is partly a function of living without democracy in South Africa.
Partly because of my background and partly for the same economic, social and cultural reasons as many others, I chose to live in London. I feel safe and at home here. However, I recognise that we are going to have to move. I see the benefit of living in a small, cohesive community post peak oil but such communities can be populated by insular, narrow-minded bigots.
None of this means that fundamentalism is not a real issue in the islamic world, however, fundamentalist thinking also exists in judaism, christianity and in the secular market west. for example, the current crowd in power in Washington are a mix of market fundamentalists (the neo-cons: e.g. Cheney) and christian fundamentalists (the religious right, e.g. Bush).
Anyway, sorry this is such a long post, but I had to get this off my chest.
I understand Aurora's feelings. I was toying with the same idea myself for about 24 hours. My feelings were partly that I felt pretty offended and partly I felt that the whole point of PowerSwitch was being so badly undermined by the bigotry. Like many others, I find it great to have a place to discuss peak and related issues with a varied group of people who are all peak oil aware.
I also agree Pippa that it's hard to communicate fully when you only have the written word. Although, it's a good test of our powers of written expression and our reading skills to keep up with all the conversations.
The whole episode has made me think about my post peak future. My father was an immigrant to this country. He was born into an islamic family in South Africa and came here to study medicine (paid by his family, not the UK taxpayer). He met my mother in Ireland and they settled near London where my dad worked at a GP for many years. He was an ardent communist as a young man and was a life-long atheist and he had quite a rationalist view of the world. I'm a bit more agnostic but still essentially a non-believer. At school I learnt about christianity, at college various evangelical types tried to convert me. When I was 21, I visited apartheid South Africa and met hundreds of people all related to me. I visited again two years ago. Now I work in the most ethnically mixed city in the world (bar New York?) and work and socialise with people of all faiths and no faith, including muslims.
The point of this potted family history is to say that I feel I am in a pretty good position to say that muslim people share the same hopes, dreams and values as non-muslims. Many of the values that they would describe as islamic are also christian and jewish. Amongst my cousins, there's the whole range from the intolerant, ignorant & foolish to the thoughtful, thinking and very special. Most are just ordinary people living rather prosaic lives. Their social attitudes are mostly more conservative than mine, more like those of the 1950s, but that is partly a function of living without democracy in South Africa.
Partly because of my background and partly for the same economic, social and cultural reasons as many others, I chose to live in London. I feel safe and at home here. However, I recognise that we are going to have to move. I see the benefit of living in a small, cohesive community post peak oil but such communities can be populated by insular, narrow-minded bigots.
None of this means that fundamentalism is not a real issue in the islamic world, however, fundamentalist thinking also exists in judaism, christianity and in the secular market west. for example, the current crowd in power in Washington are a mix of market fundamentalists (the neo-cons: e.g. Cheney) and christian fundamentalists (the religious right, e.g. Bush).
Anyway, sorry this is such a long post, but I had to get this off my chest.
Nice post Adam.
I'll quickly add my thoughts on this whole thing and PS in general.
I think PS succeeds for several reasons. They are (in no great order):
1 There is a core group of knowledgeable people (Chris, Tess etc) who can generally answer anything everyone else wants to know. There's no snobbery either which is quite refreshing - a genuine desire to spread the word!
2 The topics and discussions have generally been pretty intelligent without people getting personal or petty - logic is a strong force here.
3 It's not just PO - it's fair to say most people who have found PO have found many other issues that don't add up - climate change, inequality, capitalism, pretty much everything really! Nothing has been taboo here and long may that last.
Of late I think things have 'evolved' slightly - maybe lots of new people (a New PS Order?) coming in at once (I might have to take some blame as I suggested making the links to the forum more visible and I'm sure there has been a higher newcomer-rate since then!). Whichever way, it's no doubt a growing pain and just the logical way things go as more people get involved. I hope we hang on the good bits though as I've not found such an interesting place to have a discussion or find out what's really happening on spaceship earth...
I'll quickly add my thoughts on this whole thing and PS in general.
I think PS succeeds for several reasons. They are (in no great order):
1 There is a core group of knowledgeable people (Chris, Tess etc) who can generally answer anything everyone else wants to know. There's no snobbery either which is quite refreshing - a genuine desire to spread the word!
2 The topics and discussions have generally been pretty intelligent without people getting personal or petty - logic is a strong force here.
3 It's not just PO - it's fair to say most people who have found PO have found many other issues that don't add up - climate change, inequality, capitalism, pretty much everything really! Nothing has been taboo here and long may that last.
Of late I think things have 'evolved' slightly - maybe lots of new people (a New PS Order?) coming in at once (I might have to take some blame as I suggested making the links to the forum more visible and I'm sure there has been a higher newcomer-rate since then!). Whichever way, it's no doubt a growing pain and just the logical way things go as more people get involved. I hope we hang on the good bits though as I've not found such an interesting place to have a discussion or find out what's really happening on spaceship earth...
Thanks Ian. I think you are right. Even though there are people from different political persuasions posting here, we do seem to have in common:
* a critical/sceptical view of the world as presented to us by the main stream media
and, most of the time, I hope
* an ability to exchange views without giving or taking offence too easily.
[that's probably enough patting ourselves on the back]
Snow Hope, yeah we should talk about immigration and maybe about the wider issues of entitlements.
[I've been posting so much in the last few days, I'll try and shut up for bit now!]
* a critical/sceptical view of the world as presented to us by the main stream media
and, most of the time, I hope
* an ability to exchange views without giving or taking offence too easily.
[that's probably enough patting ourselves on the back]
Snow Hope, yeah we should talk about immigration and maybe about the wider issues of entitlements.
[I've been posting so much in the last few days, I'll try and shut up for bit now!]
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Mean Mr Mustard
- Posts: 1555
- Joined: 31 Dec 2006, 12:14
- Location: Cambridgeshire
Whereever the spat was on the forum, fortunately I missed it. Antagonism and flame wars can so easily ignite, I've seen it on professional discussion boards, hobby sites and other special interest areas.tattercoats wrote:
I suppose as a group we've all gone further along those preparations and have less to tell each other, besides the current geopolitical situ and oil price situ are relatively stable - so the debates have become rather more esoteric, and the differences between us have risen to the surface.
I'm not sure that there's ever less to tell, simply because there's new folks like me looking to learn a bit more about PO and preparations. And as we haven't got the time to trawl back through tons of threads, I guess the content can get repetitive to the initiated. It's also becoming more obvious by the day, Dubya's latest energy policy pronouncements cloaked in the war on terror rhetoric being a case in point.
Whatever, this is usually a friendly collegiate kind of place for discussing a serious mind blowig topic, with less of the disconcerting AK47s and ammo clips survivalist last man standing types. Unless they're lurking in the undergrowth?
Oh they pop up for a... snipe.. occasionally.Mean Mr Mustard wrote: Unless they're lurking in the undergrowth?
Rob
XENG - University of Exeter Engineering Society
"Now there is one outstandingly important fact regarding Spaceship Earth, and that is that no instruction book came with it." - R. Buckminster Fuller
XENG - University of Exeter Engineering Society
"Now there is one outstandingly important fact regarding Spaceship Earth, and that is that no instruction book came with it." - R. Buckminster Fuller
Yay!Aurora wrote:FROM THE ARTIST FORMERLY KNOWN AS OMEGA3.
There ain't enough of us for us to be able to afford to lose any . . .
Andy Hunt
http://greencottage.burysolarclub.net
http://greencottage.burysolarclub.net
Eternal Sunshine wrote: I wouldn't want to worry you with the truth.
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Aurora
I agree. I have many unanswered questions about PO. I guess the only stupid questions are the ones we are afraid to ask. Thanks everyone.ianryder wrote:1 There is a core group of knowledgeable people (Chris, Tess etc) who can generally answer anything everyone else wants to know. There's no snobbery either which is quite refreshing - a genuine desire to spread the word!
Aurora -
I well understand your disgust with bigotry being given space to propagate its filth.
This dogmatic veneration of free speech, for those who would deny both that and other freedoms, was the reason I resigned as senior moderator at Peak Oil.com.
Personally I believe (with no disrespect intended Eggman) that we have to apply careful judgement to the issue of bigotry, specifically to its excision from any part of our lives, including encouraging it with conversation on websites.
In my view there is nothing more lethally dangerous to democracy, and to our prospects of maintaining tolerance and swelling community spirit in the face of the rigours of PO plus CD, than the bigotries of race, creed & thascism.
Therefore I'll readily apply whatever force is useful to their eradication before they gain still greater influence under the Murdoch-led media.
If it came to a vote here, I'd be in favour of excising those who abuse this site to breach the spirit of the UK's laws against inciting hatred.
Or does anyone have cogent evidence that racists are being redeemed by conversation with sane people ?
I'm glad you chose to return.
Regards,
Bill
I well understand your disgust with bigotry being given space to propagate its filth.
This dogmatic veneration of free speech, for those who would deny both that and other freedoms, was the reason I resigned as senior moderator at Peak Oil.com.
Personally I believe (with no disrespect intended Eggman) that we have to apply careful judgement to the issue of bigotry, specifically to its excision from any part of our lives, including encouraging it with conversation on websites.
In my view there is nothing more lethally dangerous to democracy, and to our prospects of maintaining tolerance and swelling community spirit in the face of the rigours of PO plus CD, than the bigotries of race, creed & thascism.
Therefore I'll readily apply whatever force is useful to their eradication before they gain still greater influence under the Murdoch-led media.
If it came to a vote here, I'd be in favour of excising those who abuse this site to breach the spirit of the UK's laws against inciting hatred.
Or does anyone have cogent evidence that racists are being redeemed by conversation with sane people ?
I'm glad you chose to return.
Regards,
Bill
